In this episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, the hosts dive into several hot topics, with a sharp focus on ZipRecruiter's latest blunder—its new product, dubbed a "stink bomb." As job boards like ZipRecruiter and Dice face a rapidly changing market, the hosts discuss how this flop reflects broader challenges in the industry. The conversation touches on the pressure job boards face to innovate and stay relevant in a landscape where AI, tech advancements, and shifting job-seeking strategies are reshaping the future of work.
Takeaways:
- ZipRecruiter's "stink bomb" underscores the struggle for job boards to innovate.
- Job boards like ZipRecruiter and Dice must evolve to survive in an AI-driven market.
- AI's impact on jobs is often overstated, but tech is still influencing the future of work.
- Innovative job-seeking strategies challenge traditional norms.
- Networking events like HR Tech are essential for industry connections and staying competitive.
- Understanding market dynamics is key to navigating the evolving employment landscape.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:30.936)
Two guys who were nowhere near Tiananmen Square in 1989. Hey boys and girls, it's the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel eating the cats cheeseman.
Chad (00:42.645)
This is Chad resume databases are back. So wash.
Joel (00:46.754)
And on this episode is AI's impact on jobs overhyped, zip recruiter and dice look to innovate their way out of the abyss and why it's a perfect time to start poaching Amazon employees. Let's do this.
Chad (01:06.587)
for the boys since I didn't bring it to, I didn't, didn't bring it to my Kiara hat kids. If you're watching audio, Kiara hat that I didn't bring to HR tech. said I would, I said I would, but, yeah, it didn't, didn't make the packing list. It's fair. It's a good hat.
Joel (01:14.53)
There you go, Kiara, that's right. That's right.
Joel (01:22.222)
They had like the coordinating shirts and they're taking the branding to a whole different level. That's right. Our new shout out, shout out sponsor making techs recruiting easy. That's Kiora, Kiora as we're settling in after our HR tech hangovers being in Vegas. think I'm back to normal. How about you, Chad?
Chad (01:26.751)
good hat. A Lululemon shirt.
Chad (01:37.296)
That's Cure!
Yes, very much so.
I'm good, dude. I, again, I, I'm, I'm a big fan of understanding that it is not a sprint. It's a marathon and watching some of these kids, even guys our age, fucking sprint the first night. It's like, Nope. Can't not going to do that. I got work to do. got, I got things to do. Right. so yeah, no, I I'm all good. I'm all good.
Joel (01:52.77)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (02:04.238)
So I had a bit of an epiphany at HR tech. know you know this, the listeners don't. So the second night, think we're both fairly tired. think I messaged you and I say, or you message me and say, you're going out to the parties. And I say like, that's the plan. and then you're like, Julie's feelings somewhat not great. We'll see what happens. I lay down, I closed my eyes and I'm like, I'm just gonna take a little power nap and get up. I don't wake up till like 10 45.
Chad (02:32.021)
Go on.
Joel (02:34.51)
And I'm like, well, I guess I'm in for the night. So I just turn everything off and go to bed and I track my sleep. And I showed you like how good my sleep was. I have these rings and if they are green, it's awesome. If it's blue, it's like you're in another zone. And I had one blue and then the rest green. So there's something to be said for a good night's sleep. when you're traveling on the road for sure. I don't know if it'll be a habit, but, it could be.
Chad (02:41.215)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Chad (02:56.835)
yes.
and not easy to get.
Joel (03:02.222)
I'm understanding, I'm understanding why Jerry Crispin for so many years would just, wherever, did you ever go to one of his dinners?
Chad (03:02.695)
not easy to get.
Chad (03:11.934)
no. Huh.
Joel (03:12.046)
Okay. So he would have these dinners and he would invite, I don't know, five to 10 people. And that was his thing. And he would interact with different people. But like, I'm, I'm quickly learning why Jerry did that. We're getting in that like 20 years ago, Jerry, and it, you know, like we're like, it's more appealing to me to have a nice dinner and some good drinks and conversation than it is yelling at everybody trying to like engage with people. I'm sort of beyond.
Chad (03:18.325)
Sure.
Chad (03:39.431)
And there's a good amount of yelling. Yes. Even in the expo hall.
Joel (03:41.334)
I'm beyond that. Call me old. Tell me. Yeah. Yeah, tell me you're old without telling me that you're old. So what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Let's get to that. Let's get to shout outs. You have some stuff from HR tech that you didn't get to last week that I think you want to want to talk about all the good goodness in Vegas.
Chad (03:49.694)
You
Chad (03:54.792)
Okay.
Chad (04:01.971)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, right, right out of the gate. Shout out to higher road.com. we were handing out free beer, thanks to, to hire road in Vegas last week. and we obviously overperformed because we ran out of beer in less than 30 minutes. So it's, it's always great to catch up with friends over beer. And when you're giving away free beer, you have more friends than you originally thought you did. So that was, that was fun. and then last but not least big.
incredibly large, humongous shout out to Alin Bailey, Rebecca Carr, Kaylee Bateman, and the whole crew at the Smart Recruiters booth for making sure that we had a comfy couch, chairs, a beer fridge, plus VIP tickets to the Skyfall Lounge pretty much all week. And I got a new Aura Ring. So I'm gonna, I'm trying this out again.
Joel (04:34.642)
yeah.
Joel (04:42.99)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (04:53.646)
For the kids that don't know, what is an aura ring, Chad? Not to be confused with the aura penis ring.
Chad (04:57.429)
That's pretty much one of those. Yeah. Do they have one of those? get into, yeah. I mean, if you have the Apple watch, it's got the health, piece, any of the wearables these days are really focused on the health side, the, or a ring, which you can see if you're watching on, if you're watching on YouTube, it's simply just one of those. It's just a ring instead of a watch.
Joel (05:03.062)
which is a whole new market that they should go after, by the way.
Joel (05:24.942)
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love it. and I found out that I have a career as a beer guy at a, at a stadium near you. got the cold beer here, I think, down pat because of the, the free beer giveaway. my shout out bringing back to the industry goes out to Courtney summer Myers. Now who the hell is Courtney summer Myers? well laid off twice, Courtney summer Myers.
Chad (05:28.725)
Pretty cool.
Chad (05:34.665)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (05:46.151)
Joel (05:50.574)
is a 28 year old graphic designer in the UK who openly declared her job hunt on LinkedIn with a hashtag desperate banner around her profile picture. Now you've seen on LinkedIn the open to work as well as the hiring banner. No, no, no, Courtney said, I'm making my own. She's a graphic designer. She knows the sizing and how to get everything right. She challenges the stigma of needing work and sparking both support as well as criticism as you can imagine.
Chad (06:01.705)
desperate. Yeah. Yep.
Chad (06:12.671)
Are we on? Yeah.
Joel (06:19.892)
on LinkedIn. as of this recording, checking out her LinkedIn profile, she has yet to find a job. So even though all this attention is going on with her, she hasn't found a job. People are torn by this whole badge thing on LinkedIn. I'm a little confused why everyone's so open arms on this. If she wants to make a different kind of custom thing, I say more power to you. Hashtag desperate. It could happen.
It could be a thing. say LinkedIn. That could be the most innovative thing that you've done in the last six months. Create a new desperate banner for the people that are really unemployed and really looking for jobs. Shout out to Courtney Summer Myers.
Chad (06:49.149)
Hahaha
Chad (06:58.237)
Yes. And real quick, I mean, you were talking about LinkedIn. Last week, I think you talked about the video feed and how you like the video feed. I was, so I was messaging with Joel Algy. It does a shit ton of video. And a couple of his came up and I was like, how are you getting your videos in those feeds? And he's like, I have no clue. But when they do get into the feed, they get some major attention. The big issue is you can't interact with the video. So like,
Joel (07:02.392)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (07:19.224)
Really?
Chad (07:27.477)
on TikTok, can interact with the video, can thumbs up, can make the, you can make a comment, that kind of thing. it doesn't seem at least mobile version, to, be able to allow for that. So it looks like we're still early stages, and LinkedIn still hasn't figured the shit out yet.
Joel (07:44.568)
That is interesting. So Joel isn't uploading his videos to LinkedIn and somehow they are. So they're contracting with somebody to get the...
Chad (07:46.388)
Mm.
Chad (07:52.271)
No, he's uploading them to LinkedIn just in the regular feed, but yet LinkedIn is not pulling over all the videos that are being uploaded into the feed. Because he said, if you get a video uploaded to that feed, you're going to see hundreds of thousands of views because they aren't taking them all. So I don't know what they're doing to choose to pick and choose which videos to use or not to use.
Joel (08:03.371)
Okay.
Joel (08:11.245)
Yeah.
Joel (08:18.734)
mysterious algorithm that is LinkedIn.
Chad (08:23.573)
trying to figure it out.
Joel (08:26.84)
Well, speaking of videos, Chad, I was immensely overwhelmed by an unboxing video of our t-shirt. Now I'm sure you've seen his unbiased. If you have kids, they're unboxing toys. If you're shoe geek, they're like my boxing. Unboxing is a big thing with the Gen Z and the millennials. And I never thought that Chad and cheese would be the focal point of an unboxing. a big, big, big shout out.
Chad (08:41.695)
Mm-hmm. yeah. Yep.
Joel (08:55.566)
goes to Gia Johnston, who's now maybe in the pole position as our best fan, biggest fanatic. She did an unboxing. Let's take a look at this. If you're listening to this, you'll have to check out YouTube for this, but our YouTube listeners will see this.
Chad (08:55.914)
Yeah.
Chad (09:03.753)
Hahaha
Chad (09:25.011)
I love the tat sleeve. I love the sleeve.
Joel (09:27.659)
Yeah.
Joel (09:37.71)
There you go.
Chad (09:48.466)
you
Joel (09:57.08)
for
Chad (10:01.363)
There it is. That's the money shot. There it is, Gia. There it is, Gia.
Joel (10:03.534)
Chad (10:10.045)
Ooh, little airing love too.
Joel (10:18.81)
and we love you, Gia. Are you kidding me? That is awesome. That is awesome.
Chad (10:22.365)
No. Did we just become best friends?
Joel (10:26.338)
And I'm so glad we got the branded bags and like, I'm so glad that was so awesome. Thank you, Gia. That made my week. That made my week. So free shit is out there to be had Chad. You don't have to unbox it. You can get a t-shirt just like that. Tell them how they can do that.
Chad (10:31.001)
yeah.
Chad (10:34.495)
baller. That was baller. Yeah, that was baller. That was baller. Very nice.
Chad (10:42.59)
No!
It's very simple kids. and this isn't just about having a t-shirt. also give away free craft beer from Aspen tech labs, free whiskey, two bottles from text kernel slash. might know them as bullhorn. and then if it's your birthday, you might get some rum from plum. If you go to Chad cheese.com slash free. That's right. Cause it's free. It's all free.
Chad (11:15.88)
Love it.
Joel (11:16.814)
That's right. By the way, forgot to mention Kiora given away Pappy aged bourbon barrel, syrup from, the fine country of Canada. So let's get to our birthday roundup. These are listeners that are celebrating another trip around the sun. goes to Sean Luchans, Valerie Doyle, Caitlin Grady, Ryan McGrath, George Dobbin, George out in Scotland. hope he's listening. Kevin Grossman, Ling Wu, Chuck Genuardi, Leah Maguire, Brett Farmelo, Andrea Durla, Carla Cruch, Matt
Chad (11:24.477)
I love it. I love it. Love it.
Chad (11:37.917)
My man. yeah.
Chad (11:42.677)
Excuse me.
Joel (11:46.09)
Neeson, John Lawton, Brandon Luzer, Sarah Fell, Casey Dockendorf, my sister-in-law, Alison Holbrook, and our favorite Belgian. That's right. That's right. The true muscles from Brussels. Levin, House of HR, celebrating another trip around the sun. So happy birthday to everybody.
Chad (11:53.279)
There it is.
Chad (11:58.862)
Leaving!
Chad (12:08.589)
I love it. Can't wait to see leaving again. I can't wait to go back to House of HR and the e-recruiting conference whenever they choose to have that again, but hopefully it'll be in Amsterdam. But as we're talking about events, Shaker recruitment marketing, just so you know, kids, powers the Chad and Cheese travel. Next week, we're in Scottsdale for two of Paradox's client boards. And I love these events because they are talent acquisition practitioners. Very heavy.
talent acquisition practitioner that yeah, we're gonna be filming season two of maybe three of the AI sessions. Now kids, if you have not seen the AI sessions, run, don't walk to thesessions.ai. That's right, open up a browser, type in thesessions.ai where you can watch season one of the AI sessions, which is an 11.
Joel (12:41.944)
So happy.
Joel (12:50.574)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (13:08.199)
Episode mini series and every episode is about 10 minutes long or so so yes It's snackable bites of AI with friends like Eileen Kowalski from General Motors then We're heading to Nalyn's. That's right, New Orleans for outs of brand spanking new conference called HR gumbo one of my favorite places to eat food in the United States is New Orleans This looks like a pretty damn cool event. We're gonna be at the World War two museum
Joel (13:32.12)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (13:37.941)
One night we're going to be at a rooftop another night and the thing I love about this is they brought in Chad and cheese to make compliance cool or let me talk about AI and we talk about compliance Our friend Keith Sonderling is gonna be there because you can't make compliance cool without a guy Who can wear a suit and still rock it and look cool himself? So we're looking forward to being there for all of these events
Joel (13:50.552)
Yes. Yes.
Chad (14:02.197)
You can go to chadcheese.com slash events to register unless it's the paradox event. You got to be a VIP to get to that one. Outsolve. I think there's still some seats left. So if you want to go to New Orleans, you want to see some Chad and Cheese, you want to talk about AI and compliance, go to chadcheese.com slash events. Register today.
Joel (14:08.861)
Yeah.
Joel (14:13.774)
Okay.
Joel (14:22.978)
That's right. Not to be confused with the HR a two Faye conference going on the week, week after that. I have not been to the world war II museum, which apparently is amazing. Have you been there yet? Okay. All right. Definitely making time for that.
Chad (14:31.742)
dude. Yes. Yes. It is, is, it is amazing. It's, it's got, it's got the, it's got the two sides, the two fronts. So you go in one, one area and it's got the European front. And then you go into an entirely different experience for the Pacific front. It is amazing.
Joel (14:44.074)
huh. huh.
Joel (14:50.85)
How much time should I set aside for it? Three hours, four hours?
Chad (14:54.161)
It depends on how long you want to take, but I would say probably three to four hours.
Joel (14:59.872)
Okay. So about as long as I take to set my fantasy draft every week, which by the way, Chad brings us to fantasy football with our friends at factory fix.com. Here's your leaderboard, a leaderboard that you may not be too happy to hear. Number one, action Jackson Dalquist in the top position. Number two, Adam Gordon Ramsey. That's right. The man who auto drafted and knows nothing about American football is in the two spot. Your boy.
Chad (15:04.838)
yes. I don't want hear about it. I don't want hear about it.
Chad (15:23.944)
areas.
Chad (15:27.733)
Good for him.
Joel (15:29.398)
It's all Gouda right here. Joel Cheeseman in three spot David. Don't call me Goliath stifle it for Dean. The daddy mackerel, the Australian, the Mac daddy from down under number five, Keith, mentioned him Sonderling Keith, the commission Sonderling number six, Laura Liza, Martinelli, Dina porno for Pero, Jennifer, Terry, Tharp, Anniston.
Chad (15:39.445)
you
Joel (15:53.962)
Number 10, Chad thought he was drafting Ronaldo. So wash, followed by Sean Horton. Here's the who and number 12 at the caboose. Kristi gnome Lisbon is in the last place spot. And that is our fantasy football roundup as we head into week four, by the way, I'm, I'm facing Adam this week. So, my pride is on the line. If I lose to a Scott, who knows Jack.
Chad (15:56.303)
I did.
You
Chad (16:06.318)
factory fix, baby, thanks so much.
Chad (16:17.538)
Joel (16:22.528)
about American football. don't know if I can show my face. I may be blacked out on next week's show if I lose to Adam Gordon. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Well, let's get to some news, shall we?
Chad (16:24.053)
It's a long season. It's a long season.
you
Chad (16:35.411)
In Tropic!
Joel (16:39.022)
the world is a fun place these days, isn't it Chad? Well, AI is in the news. Imagine that. OpenAI concluded a funding round at a $157 billion valuation, raising $6.6 billion led by Thrive Capital with participation from Microsoft, NVIDIA, and other names that you probably know. The company expects to bring in $11.6 billion in sales next year.
Chad (16:52.319)
Thanks.
Joel (17:04.993)
That's up from just 3.7 billion in 2024. However, however, Chad throw some cold water on this puppy. One MIT professor isn't so optimistic by his calculation, only a small percentage of all jobs. What he says is a mere 5 % is ripe to be taken over or at least heavily aided by AI over the next decade. Expecting a big bubble to burst. Chad, where are you on the side of these opposing viewpoints?
Chad (17:35.573)
Yeah, I don't think there's a bubble that's gonna burst. let's just, I, Guy's smart, he's from MIT, don't get me wrong. I don't think he's a workforce economist. At the end of the day though, remember that earlier this year, OpenAI was valued at a reported 80 billion, up from the 29 billion from 2023, from last year. Now today, $157 billion valuation.
There are 11 million chat GPT plus subscribers, 1 million paying business users on chat GPT. Revenue last month up 1700%. And yet open AI expects to lose roughly $5 billion this year on a revenue of 3.7 billion. So this to me feels a lot like
social media in the early years. LinkedIn first came out, it was new because it was slanted toward professionals instead of just friends like Friendster, MySpace, Classmates.com and even Facebook who at one time wasn't open to the public. You needed a university email address to actually join Facebook. There were so many flavors and yet only LinkedIn and Facebook have survived the early social media wars. Now,
Joel (18:48.238)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (18:57.107)
I love using chat GPT, but I kind of feel like open AI is the Friendster or MySpace of AI right now. And the question is, why do I feel this way? Well, Microsoft windows is the most widely used operating system for computers with a market share of about 72 % as of February of this year. According to a statistical about 56 % of organizations worldwide use Microsoft Azure for cloud services. And the hair 20.
23 revenues for just Microsoft cloud was 64.7 billion. Google retains 82 % share of global search markets and 11 % of cloud infrastructure market. Google's cloud revenue is 33.1 billion in 2023. Now the last big boy, Amazon web services had 31 % of the cloud infrastructure market by, which generated $91 billion globally.
Microsoft, Google, and Amazon have the power to keep little open AI in their sites watching from close or afar, whether you're Microsoft or Amazon, while building the next evolution of cloud services that will be baked into everything. Because where is all the AI needed? In our operating systems, in our cloud services, in our everyday platforms. So these companies, not open AI, Google, Microsoft,
Joel (20:17.646)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (20:26.545)
Amazon, they've built rails and they're playing major league. They're playing at the major league level while open AI is still playing small ball. So when open AI is baked when AI, not open AI, but when AI is baked into all of these other areas, we're not going to have a use for open AI anymore. So for me, it's, it's an interesting chess move from all of these companies because they're looking at infrastructure where open AI is looking for subscribers.
Joel (20:47.694)
Hmm.
Joel (20:57.154)
posing views. Gotta love it.
Joel (21:02.798)
So I got a quick message for Mr. MIT. OK.
Chad (21:06.793)
You
Joel (21:09.856)
I would be, I'm hard pressed to think about a company in any sector who isn't thinking about how do we reduce our headcount.
Unless you're talking about like real service stuff, like in and out or hospital, like almost every business on the planet is thinking about how do we automate ourself into less head count into less headaches with people, which will lead us to our dock worker story in a little bit. like, if you, if you have, if you have the, if you have the recipe of every company on the planet, just about is trying to figure out how do we have less people do this, do this work. And you have.
Our friend Courtney and my shout outs, tell her that AI isn't impacting her ability, ability to get a job. Every image that you and I put on for shows now is us hacking around on Dolly or whatever to create an image of whatever it is. Right. We don't have to pay a designer to do it. We don't like that is so easy for us and we're not the only ones. I promise you. Like the, the, the need for designers like Courtney is reduced is being reduced because of AI.
Chad (21:51.253)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (22:06.921)
Hmm.
Chad (22:11.25)
No, no.
Joel (22:15.726)
We're going to talk about the dock workers a little bit on the show. A huge, every sign that they hold up is fight automation, like fight the robots, like push back on automation. That's another business that's being impacted. So for me to like, I don't know if someone at MIT is so removed from real life that they think about this in very different terms than I do, but looking on the ground and seeing just what we do in our business, AI is impacting so much and everybody's trying to figure out.
Chad (22:25.167)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (22:41.865)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (22:45.24)
how to do it. So I think that dude is totally off the rails and I'm not falling for his banana in my tailpipe. So moving on to, open AI, very interesting. your perspective is interesting. I think more about, the Netscape days. So if you're early internet user, AOL sucked ass, it was awful. And then, and then Netscape came around and you're like, this is amazing. This is like kind of fast. got, like, I can go to where I want.
And then Microsoft came and basically suffocated it with every computer you bought had had a internet Explorer or whatever it was called at the time. And then now Google launches Chrome and Safari. So you have that sort of been commoditized. don't know if AI will go on a separate, on a significantly different path or not. I am a little bit troubled by the recent exodus of a lot of executives at the company. And I don't know if that's, know, Sam was ousted and then like,
I know, Peter Teal made a call and said, I don't think so. And Sam comes back and now everyone who maybe wanted him gone is like, I'm out of here. So there's some internal stuff going on at open AI that we probably don't appreciate, but it's probably going to be a long-term issue with them. If they want to come out of this, they're probably going to go public at some point. And when they go public, they're going to have to open the kimono a little bit. What are we doing? Where's growth? And then like, what's our revenue? Like that's going to sort of put them under a microscope.
Chad (23:59.807)
Mm-hmm.
desk.
Joel (24:10.614)
I do believe that if I'm Google, Amazon, all the companies that you named, I have, I have rails and customers and distribution channels that a open AI does not. What, what Metta is doing with like smart glasses is really interesting. and their AI is built into that. So yeah, where we're going in the world is very interesting. It was, is open AI the next Netscape is the next AOL is it the next Friendster MySpace history says yes.
Chad (24:11.135)
Yep.
Chad (24:21.756)
Nope.
Joel (24:40.396)
History says yes, that this will not be the thing.
Chad (24:41.781)
Open AI or are you talking about all of the, just AI specifically because that's different. Yeah.
Joel (24:45.588)
Open AI as a business, open AI, AI is going to happen. I have no doubt about that.
Chad (24:53.031)
It's already happening. What I'm saying though is Google has their own AI, Amazon has their own AI, Microsoft has their own AI, which is different than open AI. And those three companies will smother open AI or buy them. then they will be, AI is going to be baked into everything is what I'm saying.
Joel (25:11.566)
Yeah. Does it get commoditized like email and the browser and like, so sure. Now Sam and, and, and Johnny Ive of Apple fame are apparently working on some device. That's an open AI chat GPT thing. Like that may be a total different thing that takes off at the end of the day. If you have a podcast, it's going to be fun to talk about and fun to watch and technology and how this impacts the world of work.
Chad (25:14.407)
easily. Yeah, data is the new gold.
Chad (25:36.435)
No, it's going to
Joel (25:39.534)
but yeah, it's, it's very, they have a much bigger cannon, to fight some of the forces that you're talking about with the kind of money that they've been given, by some big, big players. But speaking of not so big players, let's, let's go to, let's go to zip and dice. Can I, can I answer you in that? All right. They were in the news, this week. Who's, who's ready for some mind blowing innovation?
Chad (25:39.956)
Yep.
Chad (25:53.428)
Mmm.
Chad (25:59.797)
Joel (26:04.628)
After listening to the open AI stuff, zipper recruiter has launched an enhanced resume database offering employers advanced search tools, instant candidate contact access and workflow management that promises to expedite the hiring process. wait, Chad, there's more facing competition from programmatic advertising tech job board dice has revamped its strategy to include all tech jobs, enhancing visibility and job quality.
Chad (26:22.868)
Yes.
Joel (26:32.098)
while addressing market share loss and adapting to AI in hiring processes. Chad, your thoughts on news out of Zip and Dice, which by the way, sounds like a crime fighting duo from the 1970s. Next on Zip and Dice, they take the mob on directly. Your thoughts.
Chad (26:49.855)
Zip and dice. Let's hit dice real quick. Paul Farnsworth, the DHI CTO, said, mistake we made was we wanted to be the go-to website for technologists in their careers, which means we needed all the jobs but held back for fear of diluting the roles that our job seekers only saw through us. So, Paul, buddy, people want options, okay?
Did you not see how Indeed won the general job board wars? They used all the other job boards content against them and became quote unquote the Google for jobs until Google launched Google for jobs. This is also short term thinking. Staffing didn't want the entry level developer. So Dice focused on job postings for mid level and higher. The problem is today's entry level developer is tomorrow's rock star developer.
You box them out and they create communities elsewhere like HackerRank, Stack Overflow, GitHub, Hackajob. Dice focused way too heavy on staffing and they missed the much wider total addressable market and strategic long play. So Dice should have integrated hacking challenges and skills development into their systems decades ago. But much like Monster and Crew Builder, they got fat, they got lazy, they got art the dart.
And they pat, got passed over by other providers. So just from a dice side of the house, that's what I saw.
Joel (28:29.986)
What was ZipRecruiter at HR Tech? I might've missed that. No, no, they weren't. Was Dice at HR Tech? No, okay. Was Monster, indeed? Yeah. Which is very, I want to check in real quick on our friends at ZipRecruiter. I've bad mouthed their podcast. know, had a waste of time. What's the point?
Chad (28:33.929)
I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. No, well, no.
Joel (28:54.668)
And I, and I ditched, I ditched, I disrespected them on the number of, of reviews and, and like engagement that they had, as of this recording, they have 16 reviews, Chad. That's right. 16, after being two months into this thing. And by the way, I'll, mention this again. They have about 1500 employees that they could send a group chat out to and say, Hey, can you review our podcast with our CEO that's on it or president or whatever? So I want to check in with that.
Chad (29:17.46)
Yes.
Joel (29:21.954)
Both of these companies, their stock price year to date is down 30 plus percent. Dice is actually down quite a bit since this article came out from our friends at AIM. What really shocks me, can ZipRecruiter not get a decent brand to endorse their shit? Do you know who the, if you go look at their new resume stuff, you know who the company is that is the testimonial?
Chad (29:30.666)
Hmm.
Chad (29:50.197)
I have no clue.
Joel (29:51.468)
Yeah. You think it'd be like, I don't know. Could we get a Chipotle? Could we get like somebody that somebody knows the company that is their testimonial is Butler America, Butler America. Do you know Butler America chat? Have you, have you been like to a Butler America store or bought from Butler America? No, no. So they're launching a new product and their testimonial after being in business as long as they have with as many clients as they have.
Chad (29:55.183)
huh.
Chad (30:09.875)
Now, you're clear what the fuck it is,
Joel (30:20.66)
is Butler America. In all seriousness, though, the stuff they mentioned has been done. Like why they're wrapping this pig and some lipstick that says this is innovation and this is new stuff, like is ridiculous. What what zip needs to do and maybe dice on a lesser extent is take a page out of the bullhorn playbook. Okay. Build a marketplace on zip recruiter.
Instead of wasting your time on whatever this shit is, build a marketplace that startups that everyone that was at HR tech, because you weren't can build stuff on your platform that then your clients can access and use. And then you'll get like the next startup.
Chad (31:02.933)
It's too late. It's too late. It's too late. It's too late. It's too late. What you're talking about right now for ZipRecruiter, it's too late.
Joel (31:06.712)
I don't know if it's a bit of a hell Mary, but I'd be much more excited about zip recruiter. If zip recruiter said we're launching a marketplace and here are here are 10, here, here are 10 partners that we're launching the marketplace with. I'd be much more interested than we have new search features.
Chad (31:22.613)
75 % of the marketplaces that are out there are worthless. 75 % of the marketplaces out there are fucking worthless. They don't have time for that. Just the marketplace and how the company uses the marketplace. They're worthless. In ZipRecruiter's standpoint, so this is not a new product. I mean, are you kidding me right now? The market needs a supercar. Fast, sporty, something that...
Joel (31:30.222)
the apps in the marketplace or the marketplace is worthless?
Chad (31:47.997)
gets the job done fast, right? ZipRecruiter gives us a model A and all they did was change the fucking windshield wiper blades. Seriously, what's going on over there is online career center, Monsterboard, eSpan, Career Mosaic, Headhunter.net, all 1990s job board shit. Monster.com bought Trovix, Trovix in 2008. And soon after that, they released Sixcent Search, which is this.
Joel (32:15.982)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (32:16.693)
Zip recorder, if you're listening, it's very fucking simple. Stop the insanity. The market doesn't need an easy to search resume database. The market needs you to ingest the job description, apply the requirements to your database of candidates, automatically surface those candidates while inviting them to, I don't know, actually apply for those jobs. Once someone applies for the jobs, ask a few screening questions.
Joel (32:40.814)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (32:44.935)
If they pass the screening questions, go ahead and schedule them for an interview or depending on the job, go ahead and offer them a goddamn job. The thing is, what you're asking for, no, they don't have time for that shit. They've got to do the basics right and they're not even getting the basics right. That is playing fucking PhD level chess when they aren't even playing checkers right.
Joel (32:55.811)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (33:07.948)
I'll go you one better. They should just have Apollo on speed dial and be like, what do we need to do to get a deal done? What do you need from us to get you to write a check and we can be done with this whole thing and we can join the career builder, monsters, zip recruiter, whatever, year of, year of efficiency and we can all get the hell out of this game. I go back to dice. What I did find interesting from the story in the comment, I think from the CFO that they interviewed is that with AI.
Chad (33:17.735)
It's not gonna happen either.
Chad (33:28.981)
That happened.
Joel (33:37.69)
language barriers are being broken down. In other words, there are so many Indian, Indian developers and there may be lack of English or like there there's nuance there that they don't get that AI can solve. So if you have all these conversations with developers and employers, and it's totally English the way that you think it is and like that language barriers cut down, does that reduce the like.
Chad (33:47.406)
Yeah.
Joel (34:06.358)
Is there not a premium on like English speaking native English speaking programmers? Because everyone sounds the same. It doesn't matter. And I can, I can even not speak English and we can have a conversation about development that goes away. think that could be a huge deflationary, development. that, if that takes hold, that was something that I thought was interesting from the, from the interview, but more or less.
Chad (34:27.285)
It's not interesting. Everybody has it. The thing is, DICE is talking about technology that everybody's going to have access to. What they didn't have access to and DICE has squandered is building a community in technology.
Again, AI, commodity, data, not the commodity, that's the gold. They have squandered the gold and now they're focusing and this is a fucking bullshit diversion. They've got nothing. They've screwed themselves over. They're the monster and career builder that we all know and used to love and they're now merging and dying very slow deaths. Same things happen in what dies. The CTO is talking about where they fucked up. I got it, but...
Joel (34:49.336)
Yeah.
Chad (35:09.747)
everything that you're talking about around language barrier, everybody has access to that. So I don't understand. Why should I be excited about Dice?
Joel (35:19.736)
Not necessarily dice, but the trend of the barrier of language being torn down, I think is interesting. That's all. I don't have it.
Chad (35:25.767)
Everybody has it.
Chad (35:30.388)
Yeah, you do.
Joel (35:34.274)
What are we in week six now of American Chad back in the back in the saddle. He's going back to Europe at the end of October, everybody. So he'll be, he'll be in a much better mood. Well, let's, let's take a breather and we'll come back to a topic that Chad will not get excited about unions.
Chad (35:39.634)
On the way.
Chad (35:49.611)
Mmm, I'm sure.
Joel (35:55.182)
All right, Chad, a story that's been, I don't know, really big on the news, the news station, the mainstream media, the U S and the U S East and Gulf coast dock workers went on strike this week impacting half of the nation's ocean shipping due to a labor contract dispute over wages. And you guessed it automation. This strike potentially costs $5 billion daily affects 36 ports and raises.
Chad (36:01.588)
yeah. Yeah, should be.
Joel (36:23.458)
concerns about economic impact, inflation, and job security. But wait, there's more. There's more. A recent government watchdog report has revealed that major shipping firms involved in the international longshoreman's association strike like Maersk and Costco, not the Costco that you buy your paper towels, but the other one have spent billions on stock buybacks, prioritizing investor returns.
Chad (36:29.194)
Mm.
Joel (36:49.13)
over salary and wage increases for striking dock workers seeking better pay and job security. Guessing you have some thoughts on this news item,
Chad (37:00.245)
Yeah, I mean, pay the people for God's sakes. It's fairly simple. In this case, if Maersk, instead of using 6.5 billion with the B kids for stock buybacks, they could have maybe used half of that to pay their people better. Now, and I like billionaire Nick Hanauer's simple description of why giving the money to the rich is bad for America. It's bad for capitalism.
So a billionaire receives money from stock buybacks. He wants to go out and buy another car, maybe two. With that money, the rest of it goes into a bank or portfolio. So the lion's share doesn't go into the economy. Instead, Maersk could have chosen to use the same money or half of it to raise workers' pay. And then the results could have ended up in down payments on hundreds, maybe thousands of cars and trucks.
So what makes more impact on the economy? Buying a couple of Ferraris or hundreds of Ford F-150s. It's easy, the latter. Plus remember for all you listeners out there, that's what capitalism is. Giving people the money they need to pay their bills. Number one, that's a good start, but to buy more stuff. We're a buying economy. It's hard for people to buy shit if they don't get the fucking money. So we need to raise wages. Especially for the people who doing the hard work.
That's, to me, is very easy. Everything I've just described is capitalism. Getting the people who are doing the hard work, the money, so that money goes back into the economy. Again, that's capitalism. It's what we should be doing. We should be focusing on that. We have become incredibly imbalanced with regard to where the money's going. And that's over from decades of trickle-down slash supply-side economics.
Joel (39:03.672)
This is not a bunch of baristas unionizing and going after a coffee company. This is a, this is, this would be a Ken in New York. You and I are too young even to sort of comment on this, but the, the, the strike in the eighties with the air traffic controllers and Reagan at the time. So this is something that is going to impact everybody.
Chad (39:08.295)
No. No.
Chad (39:23.216)
yeah, Reagan, yeah.
Joel (39:29.62)
If shit can't get in, if shit can't get into the country from the East coast and the Gulf, you you better stock up on toilet paper now. as I did yesterday, by the way, talk about going to Costco, different Costco. Europe is going to feel the pain because they can't send that, you know, they can't send French wine and Lamborghinis, to the States or whatever comes over from there. While America
Chad (39:40.277)
You
Joel (39:55.138)
doesn't send a ton of stuff out. It's going to hurt farmers because agriculture, like we do feed a lot of the world still, and those goods and goods have to go out. That's going to be really interesting. think Mexico is going to be in a pole position to like long-term be more of a player and where we're going. But this is a Netflix series waiting to happen. We're talking like global impact. We're talking like president, because the president doesn't want to look anti-union.
but they also know they need to do something about this. The companies, like if you're looking for a way to regulate companies to stop shit like this, like regulate companies and say, look, if you do a stock buyback, you're not getting government contracts or federal contracts or we're like Maersk, I think is a Norwegian company. mean, they're, think they're over in Europe. like tear, do you put tariffs on companies that pay shareholders as opposed to paying workers? Like there's a whole political layer of this. It's interesting.
Chad (40:33.205)
Mm.
Joel (40:54.562)
But to me, the most interesting, Harold Daggett. Harold Daggett is like Tony Soprano. He makes, he makes your UAW guy look like, you know, a boy scout. I want to play a video of him. If you've, if you haven't seen him a little, a little context, he makes a ton of money. He, he has a mansion with like a Bentley, reports have been done about he's like, he's gotta have mob ties for sure.
Chad (40:59.285)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (41:24.206)
He is a badass motherfucker and he will cut a bitch if not shoot a shoot a dude. So listen listen to what Harold Daggett says about the current state of the negotiations
Chad (43:02.621)
He needs take some lessons from Sean Fain. Everything that he says is, don't get me wrong, is true, but there needs to be, Sean Fain is direct, right? But there is some diplomacy that's happening there. I'm not talking about crippling anybody, right? But at the end of the day, I mean, he's right. And for these people not to get fair wages when you're seeing, I mean, they work during COVID.
Joel (43:04.248)
Damn.
Joel (43:12.462)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (43:27.806)
Not only did they work during a fucking pandemic, they didn't take pay raises when the company was getting fucking record profits. I mean, just blowing profits out of the water, enough to obviously spend billions of dollars on stock buyback. I mean, it's only fair to these workers. And again, as I'd said before, from a capitalism standpoint, then that money juices the economy. It's all good for us. I don't know why people are so pissy.
about people actually getting paid fairly for doing hard work.
Joel (43:57.71)
Yeah. Yeah. One of the challenges with the UAW side is there are other car companies that you can buy cars. This is an instance where if shit doesn't get through, it, it's brutal. It's brutal. real quick chat. I don't know if you saw the message. So I have Amazon in the intro. do you want to do it real quick or just skip over it? Okay. All right. Real quick. Cause we're, we're getting kind of wordy, this week, a new survey.
Chad (44:18.581)
Yeah, we can do it real quick. We'll do it real quick.
Joel (44:25.794)
by blind shows that 73 % of Amazon employees are considering leaving due to the new five day work week policy starting in January of 25, highlighting significant dissatisfaction and potential turnover, especially among senior staff. Another 80 % said they know someone who is already looking for another job because of the new policy. While 32 % said they know someone who has quit because of it. Chad, shit's getting deep.
Deep at Amazon, what are your thoughts on these numbers in this poll from Blind?
Chad (44:54.452)
Yeah.
Chad (44:58.591)
Well, there's definitely some reports saying that this is literally just trying to push people out, you know. So this is kind of like a forced layoff without having to pay the severance. But if that's the case, do you think Amazon thought nearly 75 % of staff would eject? I don't think so. So Amazon's woes, where they are burning through entire populations of warehouse workers and are also losing billions of revenue, dollars in revenue,
because they don't have the people in the warehouses to do the job, will now be shifting over into the Amazon office space. Amazon is really good at technology. What they're really bad at is people and being human. And this could shock Amazon very quickly.
Joel (45:48.238)
Yeah. So you know, when, when, when Trump won the election in 2016 and probably 75 % of Democrats at least said they're moving to Canada, if Trump gets elected, this reminds me of that. of course, the number of people that actually did move to Canada was probably in, in single digits. A lot of people were just venting. A lot of people were mad, which is what they do on blind, by the way, they vent kind of anonymous, like I can talk shit.
Chad (45:59.874)
Ha!
Joel (46:15.148)
I don't think we're anywhere near 70 % of Amazon losing that many people. It does show dissatisfaction with like, we don't want to go back to the way it was and they are going to lose people for it. Maybe they can pick up all the open AI people that are leaving the executive suite over there. But yeah, Amazon has an issue. They want to automate as quickly as possible. The C-suite like being disgruntled. Maybe it is partly they want to get rid of people because they're getting rid of people anyway.
with automation and robotics. And maybe this is part of that, part of that strategy. I don't know, but it's kind of weird at Amazon right now.
Chad (46:52.703)
I look back at the warehouse situation. They're losing eight billion in revenue because they're fucking up the human piece. I don't see this as anything different.
Joel (46:59.82)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, remember the story about technology, like we won't need coders. So maybe part of this is like, well, if we lose 20 % of the coders, well, they were going to go away anyway, because we're displacing them from automation. All right. Well, let's, let's take a quick break and geez, let's do a pivot and talk about condoms.
Chad (47:12.531)
Well, we will find out.
Chad (47:23.433)
Man, when's the last time you used a condom? I was just thinking about that. Once it's... God, it's been fucking decades.
Joel (47:29.87)
That's really personal, Chad. was single for a while, about 10 years ago. So I would say I'm at least maybe close to a decade plus, but yes, as a fixed married man, I have not been acquainted with condoms in quite a while. Anyway, condom usage in the U.S. is declining, particularly among teens and young adults due to advancements in long-term birth control and STI or what I was.
Chad (47:37.269)
good call. Very responsible, very responsible.
You
Chad (47:49.331)
Yes.
Joel (47:59.124)
Educated as STD anyway STI prevention drugs reduce fear of HIV and varied sex education college aged women Said that young men discourage condom usage and are often insulted by the implication that they might have an STI Chad raw doggon is apparently in with the kids. What are your thoughts?
Chad (48:20.979)
Yeah, I mean, we were scared shitless as kids because of HIV, right? mean, getting a girl pregnant, was you scared shit about that. But I mean, definitely dying from having sex. A lot of those things that you just said, they're going by the wayside. You've got different methods of birth control. Hopefully those stick around and we don't have, we could prospectively push a national regulation where
Joel (48:31.95)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (48:50.133)
States can't take that away. But from a condom standpoint, I yeah, I mean, the use, especially for for boys, young men, the most irresponsible of our of our population are young, dumb, full of come kids. And that is and so they're not good if there's no prospect, little prospect, let's say little prospect of pregnancy or STD slash, you know, HIV.
Joel (48:59.086)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (49:20.082)
yeah, they're not wearing that shit. Irresponsible as hell. Indestructible.
Joel (49:27.992)
Gen X, the only generation that became 30 at the age of 10 and is still 30 at the age of 50. it sucked for us, dude. Everything killed you. drugs killed you. Sex killed you. twisted sister lyrics were going to kill you. Driving was like everything you did was going to kill you. and as a, as a result, we either didn't do anything or like, like was super careful. Like the,
Chad (49:33.429)
you
Chad (49:50.773)
loved it.
Joel (49:55.18)
The Lynn biased cocaine death was just when I was at that age, like drugs kill you. like drugs are something I never touched because I thought it really would kill me. the AIDS thing it's yeah, I don't have much to say about this, other than where it that shit up, dude. there is a lot that can go wrong, even if she's on the pill. or we have medicine for this shit. Like be, be smart, be smart, be smart.
Which is not where I went when I thought about this week's dad jokes, Chad. No, didn't, didn't think about precaution on this one. All right. Let's, let's have a little eighties vibe with this week. what do Yoko Ono and Ethiopians have in common? What do Yoko Ono and Ethiopians have in common?
Chad (50:32.329)
Be smart, yeah.
Chad (50:48.467)
They both had beetles in their mouth.
Joel (50:51.746)
They both live off dead beetles.
Chad (50:54.227)
No,
Joel (50:55.926)
What's what did Spock find in the toilet? What did Spock find in the toilet?
Chad (51:04.019)
I don't know, I'm not a toilet joke guy, go ahead.
Joel (51:06.732)
The captain's log, the captain's log. All right, let's end on this. What's the opposite of Christopher Reeve? What's the opposite of Christopher Reeve?
Chad (51:18.65)
I don't know.
Joel (51:20.482)
This one's bad. Christopher Walken.
I'm going straight to hell for that one. We out!
Chad (51:28.408)
We out.
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