In this episode of the Chad & Cheese podcast, special guest Lieven van Nieuwenhuyze from House of HR joins the banter, dissecting Indeed’s so-called “monetization improvements” and ZipRecruiter's brutal third-quarter flop. The team dives deep into Indeed’s masterclass on squeezing every last penny out of click rates. As Indeed dials up revenue, ZipRecruiter’s performance just looks sad in comparison. Despite increased site traffic, Zip saw a dismal drop in revenue. The hosts wonder why CEO Ian Siegel still has a job, as traffic keeps climbing but the dollars don’t follow. Is it time for Recruit Holdings to grab ZipRecruiter and put it out of its misery.
The boys also explore the latest findings from DrakeStar, revealing a surge of over deals and investment in the HR tech sector this year, with AI adoption driving the boom. While AI's rapid integration brings efficiency, it also fuels anxiety across the workforce, as employees worry about job security in a world where bots handle more tasks.
Old world clicks meets new world tech - ENJOY!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:35.15)
Yeah, welcome to the Bitcoin podcast because this employment crap just isn't paying the bills anymore. Hey boys and girls, I'm just kidding of course. It's the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Hodl Cheeseman.
Chad (00:50.317)
This is Chad, be kind, rewind, Sowash.
Lieven (00:54.481)
And I'm
Joel (01:00.014)
That's right, baby. On this episode, we got layoffs, loneliness, loathing, and as you just heard, leaving is in the house, everybody. Why the hell not? Two Europeans and one American on the show. Let's do this.
Lieven (01:09.199)
Yeah, I am.
Chad (01:09.291)
Yes! Yes!
Chad (01:20.849)
You're outnumbered, Cheesman.
Joel (01:21.282)
What's up Europeans? Yeah, I am outnumbered. This is a bad, bad evolution of the show. All good.
Lieven (01:31.645)
I'm fine, I'm fine, but I'm in the wrong part of Europe where it's cold and rainy and where chat is sitting at sunny and dry so... it's not fair.
Joel (01:38.892)
Yeah, Chad's been flexing in the green room. He's showcasing the sun, the beer, the hot, there's a hot tub at your Airbnb. Yeah. It's, it's, it's.
Chad (01:39.242)
Mmm, and the beer is flowing. Ugh.
Chad (01:50.065)
And it overlooks the Cadiz Cathedral. So we're doing some very bad things right across from the cathedral. It's wonderful. It's wonderful.
Lieven (01:53.693)
Joel (01:58.868)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can we can we get some hot tubs to the North Koreans because if we just we throw in some porn and Like did you guys see this story?
Lieven (02:01.941)
I'm sure... I'm sure...
Chad (02:04.531)
Ha
Lieven (02:08.785)
I think.
Chad (02:09.703)
They're having problems, aren't they?
Joel (02:11.5)
Well, they've never had the internet. mean, can you imagine, when you first had the internet, imagine it was high speed and like all the sites that weren't available in the nineties are now available. apparently the North Koreans serving in Russia, some 10,000 soldiers have all discovered porn hub shocker as they've gotten, as they've gotten internet. No, the, the, the, secret to democracy is not a McDonald's and a Starbucks on every corner. It's porn on every phone, apparently.
Chad (02:14.841)
Huh? No? Hmm. Yeah. Hmm.
Joel (02:40.622)
if we could just figure that out. Get on that Elon, get on that Elon.
Chad (02:43.255)
Yeah, well, apparently the North Koreans are having problems getting laid. other than that, mean, you know, now they have their phone. it's not? I wouldn't know that. Okay, carry on.
Joel (02:49.294)
That's not a problem exclusive to North Koreans, by the way, Chad. That's not just for North Koreans. No, no, no. And speaking of getting laid, leaving for our listeners that don't know you, I'm sure it's not very many, but give us a quick sort of who you are for those that have never heard our European podcast.
Lieven (03:02.033)
Yeah.
Lieven (03:12.441)
I shouldn't be talking about getting late, right? Just about me. Okay, okay. So I'm leaving Vannebeners. I'll give it back afterwards. I'm leaving Vannebeners, the chief digital at House of HR. I'm the European co-host and I'll try not to say anything too stupid and desiccation.
Chad (03:14.455)
Yes, exactly.
Joel (03:15.628)
The floor is yours, my friend.
Chad (03:31.289)
We're in charge of saying the stupid shit, Leaven, so you're the smart guy. So it's all good.
Joel (03:31.544)
There's no fear of that.
Joel (03:38.208)
And speaking of smart things to say, shall we get into, into shout outs by the way, our shout outs are sponsored.
Chad (03:41.645)
Yes!
Joel (03:46.104)
by fine Canadian company startup, Kiora. That's text recruiting done smart and price efficiently. Chad, what shout out do you have for this week?
Chad (03:46.777)
Chad (03:57.091)
Well, I have a shout out to Alex Chukovsky who brings the death of prompt engineering as a job to our doorstep. That's right kids. AI has already progressed past the need for a prompt engineer job to even exist. And I'd like to also share if you're watching on YouTube, supporting comment by Oroz Alkubasi who shows the decline of prompt engineering jobs over the last 12 months.
So shout out to the death of prompt engineering and tech moving so fucking fast. We're not sure what job is going to die or be created next.
Joel (04:36.39)
we're so doomed. We're so doomed everybody. Yeah. These, you know, like we talked to a startups, Chad, and the, the cycle of like start a company, grow it a little bit and then sell it is getting so much faster than it has before. Like these jobs are going to go the same way. Like a job that is in demand and you know, one month, six months from now, like it'll be over. So your, your, ability to adapt and move quickly is going to be very important.
Chad (04:48.703)
Mm-hmm. yeah.
Joel (05:03.688)
in the future and I'll go from that.
Chad (05:05.111)
Yeah, so the turn on that, I want to hear this from Leven because he looks at startups all the time. The turn from being an advisor, you had a little bit more time to be able to develop, to be able to prospectively partner and penetrate other organizations' portfolios from a partnership and alliance standpoint. That window is shrinking very quickly. At least that's what we're seeing in the US and I think what we're also seeing in Europe. What are you seeing?
Joel (05:09.795)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (05:33.337)
on the startup side of the house leaving.
Lieven (05:38.087)
That was very long question, could you say it shorter?
Chad (05:39.969)
Always is. Yeah. So what's changed? Tech is moving much faster. Startups have to be different than what they were two years ago. What kind of changes have you seen in startups today versus just a few years ago?
Joel (05:40.076)
You
Lieven (05:56.623)
Easy answer is of course, if you don't mention AI, you don't get any funding. And that's a big change. But actually I think now with the new technology all around, things are becoming very creative. People got used to the new way of thinking, using AI, cetera. And I constantly discover new tools, HR tech tools, which are actually amazing, great ideas. So for me, what is changing is the level of creativity again.
Chad (05:59.609)
Yes. Yes.
Chad (06:05.913)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (06:24.539)
past 10 years from time to time you found something which was new. But now I get new tools monthly, think weekly maybe even. So I like the creativity which was created by technology.
Chad (06:32.699)
huh.
Chad (06:36.835)
Yeah, love it.
Joel (06:38.99)
I feel like there'll be more acquisitions, much less like lower price tags on some of these. There'll be a lot more bets taken by companies that can gobble up others.
Chad (06:45.657)
Yeah. Well, though, yeah, there'll be more funding happening too, but it'll be to a lesser degree and they won't get to C and D rounds as as, you know, others have.
Joel (06:51.384)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (06:56.174)
Yeah. And a lot of these things feel like features, like just add features. It's like buy it instead of build it, which we've talked about for a long time, but I guess it's going to be a lot more buying as companies get a lot less, more money. And speaking of lower prices, my shout out is.
Lieven (06:56.475)
Yeah,
Chad (07:02.519)
Yeah, yeah, smart.
Chad (07:11.929)
come on.
Joel (07:13.336)
From the land down under, that's right. Australia is taking a knife. That's not a knife. That's a knife and implementing a ban on social media for children under 16. As a parent of an 18 year old and a soon to be 16 year old, I can tell you that social media is the devil. Parents are in a no-win situation in the United States where
Chad (07:19.897)
to a gunfight.
Joel (07:37.12)
If they don't let their kids get on social media, their kids are lepers and, totally, totally disengaged with, with their community. But if they're on social media, well, they're on social media and between anxiety, depression, cyber bullying, negative body imaging, sleep deprivation, social media is bad for kids. We need like a federal ban in the United States. So shout out to Australia for taking that move.
We need that in the United States. Social media is bad for kids, period.
Chad (08:08.779)
Aussies don't fuck around, dude. They had, I think, a couple of mass shootings and they're like, no, we're done. None of this shit. We're not going to have this gun problem anymore. And guess what? They don't have a gun problem anymore. Then they take a look at the social media aspect of this and they're like, this is going to be an issue. It already is an issue. It's going to be bad. We're just going to go ahead and cut the head off the fucking snake right now. The US, this is going to be one of the biggest issues that we have.
Obviously gun violence is always, the rest of the world looks at us and our gun violence. And now when we talk about social media, the inability to actually go ahead and have a measured approach to it, it's ridiculous. We just, it's not gonna get done.
Joel (08:55.47)
And it also helps that in Australia, they throw a venomous animal in jail with you, to make sure that you don't fuck up or do wrong again. Got to look, got to love Australia.
Chad (09:01.369)
We can do that too.
Lieven (09:03.783)
Alright.
Chad (09:08.633)
Ha
Joel (09:09.548)
Leave and what you got.
Lieven (09:12.409)
My shout out goes to the ChatGPT search, which I mentioned in my middle name as well. So you might've read or saw that a few days ago, ChatGPT launched its new version, ChatGPT search only for the paid subscribers. And I gave it a try this afternoon. I asked that I need to come up with some entertaining ID for this boring podcast and I have to find something. It's called a shout out. Can you...
Chad (09:17.805)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (09:40.517)
find me two entertaining topics which I could use as a shout out. And that was the only info I gave it. And it checked your websites. And it knew what kind of podcast you were. And then it came up with a list of very recent articles. And it gave me two topics. So you can choose whatever you want to know about. The first one is vampire recruitment. And the second one is final round AI. So.
Chad (10:04.838)
Vampires. mean, you always go vampire. Just as, yeah, vampires. As long as they're not sparkly vampires. I want to hear about the vampire.
Joel (10:05.87)
Vampire. Are we voting? I want to hear about the vampires.
Lieven (10:09.083)
Yeah, it's
Lieven (10:13.051)
Okay, I'll give you the short version. It was actually a pretty...
Chad (10:15.789)
Yeah, Twilight, they sparkled. Yeah.
Joel (10:17.43)
Sorry.
Lieven (10:19.503)
It was a pretty long article from HR News. Apparently that's a news site in the UK. Vampire recruitment drains top talent. HR leaders urge to modernize hiring practices. And then it goes on with lots of things you already know. So I'll cut the crap. And the other one was actually a very, very interesting tool. It's about what was it called? Let me check again. It's an article in the Times, also from the UK.
Chad (10:22.328)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chad (10:47.715)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (10:48.345)
And it's about a tool, it's a Silicon Valley startup. And you know the teleprompter, the thing you put in front of your lens so you can see text. Okay. So it's created a tool to help you in during the application process. It's listening to the interview and in real time, it's giving you with the prompt, the answers to the questions and even with code. let's say you're a coder and you need to do a text test, a coding exercise. It gives you the codes in real time.
Chad (10:56.387)
Yes. Yep.
Chad (11:05.524)
yes, yeah.
Joel (11:12.387)
Yeah.
Lieven (11:17.327)
And I'm, I've been looking into it. It works. It's amazing. I love it. So is it cheating of.
Chad (11:18.169)
It's an assistant. Yeah.
Joel (11:22.126)
Can we focus on the shade, the shade that leaving through at our show? Like he just sort of like, it was real, real quick.
Lieven (11:26.415)
Yeah, I should actually use this in the show and constantly come up with witty remarks whenever you say something. would be so less tiresome than doing it myself. Yeah, I'll give it a go for next.
Chad (11:27.395)
I love it. No, that's,
Chad (11:33.141)
You
Joel (11:37.506)
That would be interesting. That would be interesting. Transcribe what we're saying and then you come up with an AI response to everything. Yep.
Chad (11:43.939)
then you hook it into your avatar and then you don't even have to be on a damn show, Leaven. I mean, it's too easy. It's too easy. That's how you scale Leaven. There you go. You're welcome.
Lieven (11:46.501)
Yeah.
No, no, like I, I consider it done.
Joel (11:55.672)
You just need to teach the AI to drink good beer while you're on the show, because that's a staple.
Lieven (11:58.973)
Hmm.
Chad (11:59.661)
You know what it won't do? It won't give away free stuff though. And that's what we do here at this show. If you go to ChadCheese.com slash free, you will get an opportunity to, if you register to possibly win a free t-shirts. Yes, that is sexy Chad and cheese guns and roses design t-shirts that feel all sexy on your body. They're good. They're nice. That's from Aaron app. Bourbon barrel aged syrup from our friends over at Keyura. That's right.
Lieven (12:03.165)
you
Joel (12:03.886)
Mmm.
Joel (12:16.824)
Beautiful.
Lieven (12:20.709)
Hmm.
Joel (12:28.43)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (12:28.575)
up north, the good stuff, beer, craft beer from Aspen Tech Labs, two bottles of whiskey from Tex Colonel, AKA, you know them as Bullhorn. And if it is your birthday, you might win some rum from Plum. Go to ChadCheese.com slash free and register to win. Because if you don't play, you can't win.
Joel (12:41.282)
Oof.
Joel (12:52.686)
I love when Chad's radio voice is on 11, like you can't win without. All right. Celebrating another, another trip around the sun. this week, Elizabeth Hill, Jennifer Revali, Jamie Carney, Jarvis Carell, Mike Vogel and Julie Callie all celebrating and leaving you celebrated a birthday pretty recently. What did you do to celebrate?
Chad (12:57.337)
Without!
Chad (13:10.413)
There we go.
Lieven (13:16.921)
I celebrate it too actually. November 11th is the birthday of my wife, which is pretty important and she won't let me forget, but it's also the birthday on the same day as Rika Coppens, our CEO. So the two most important women in my life constantly bossing me around are born on the same day. How do you call it in the US? Armistice or something? Armistice day, yes. yeah.
Chad (13:23.128)
More important, yes.
Chad (13:28.833)
Chad (13:37.571)
Armistice Day, Veterans Day for us, although where would you be without those two lovely women telling you what to do with your life? In a gutter somewhere, Leaven. In a gutter, that's where you'd be.
Joel (13:38.616)
armistice day.
Lieven (13:46.739)
my god. That is the official answer but I can't think of so many better places.
Joel (13:52.652)
I mean, come on, leaving is the gift that keeps on giving for sure. Like that is the ultimate gift to have leaving. And you guys, you guys are traveling all over the place in Europe. Where is everybody? I'm here in Indiana. Yippee, yippee, kay-yay. Where are you guys at?
Chad (13:56.823)
He is, he is. yeah, I agree, I agree.
Lieven (13:56.965)
Nah, I know.
Chad (14:03.513)
Yeah?
Chad (14:07.139)
Talk about those ski trips, Levin. What do you got going on? You're doing some skiing.
Lieven (14:12.971)
it's the start of the season. We're going skiing with House of HR in January somewhere. We're going to Italy to Livigno for the people who actually love skiing. And then also I invited myself to join the people from Redmore Group. They also have a skiing holiday. It's one of our companies also. And then I take my son skiing and then I take my wife and my family skiing. So I've been skiing. I'm going to be skiing quite some.
Chad (14:17.901)
Mmm.
Chad (14:23.158)
Lovely.
Chad (14:32.814)
Nice.
Lieven (14:42.801)
time coming months. I love skiing.
Chad (14:45.677)
Got it. Got to love that. I'm going to be on the other side of that. I'm going to try to stay away from the snow. I'm currently in Cadiz later this week, going to Gibraltar and then heading back to Portugal. The only problem here, though, is I have a surprise trip. going to Amsterdam over the weekend. It's going to be a little chilly, a little chilly, but hopefully we'll be able to warm up, warm up while we're there, then come back to Portugal and
Lieven (14:51.453)
You
Joel (15:11.458)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (15:14.359)
and then I'm just gonna set and enjoy there.
Joel (15:18.968)
I'm going to be here watching football for the most part. Thanksgiving, like it's all all good stuff, which brings us to fantasy football sponsored by our friends at factory fix. gee, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder who's in the first spot again, week three, me motherfuckers, me. And I take on Chad this week. So. Got it. Got to have it this week. All right. Followed by Dean.
Chad (15:21.378)
Hahaha!
Lieven (15:21.785)
Chad (15:26.809)
After Effects.
Chad (15:32.045)
Yes.
Chad (15:37.529)
yes.
Chad (15:43.213)
Yeah, not gonna be a good weekend.
Joel (15:47.874)
daddy Mackerel talk about the Australian contingency. That's right. get three, I get three plays on this and I'm done. All right. followed by David Stifle, Chad, you're in the four spot. Not too shabby. Jennifer Terry, Tharp, Keith, the commission Sonderling. He's moving his way up slowly, but surely Christie Lisbon, Lori Martinelli, Dean, perot for pyros action. Jackson, Dalquist.
Chad (15:52.119)
Hahaha
Chad (16:00.366)
Mm.
Chad (16:10.519)
Yes.
Joel (16:12.742)
Adam Gordon, a little crappy on his performance there for for someone who talks so much shit about wanting to play fantasy football. He he has totally dropped. He is totally embarrassed. The fellow the fellow Scots.
Lieven (16:20.017)
Ha
Chad (16:20.441)
He doesn't change his lineup.
Chad (16:27.129)
Scotland. Yes. Yes, it's sad. It's sad.
Joel (16:31.694)
Yeah, he really needs to come on in the second half of the season. And what would the bottom of the rankings be without Sean Horton? Here's a who I think it's his fifth week in a row of being at the bottom. But again, that is fantasy football sponsored by our friends at factory fix. And with that, Chad, are you ready?
Chad (16:37.933)
Horton? Is it Horton? geez. Sean. Sean.
Lieven (16:56.271)
Thank
Chad (16:57.779)
Topics!
Joel (17:01.474)
That's right. It's been a while since we've talked. That's right. Layoffs Upwork will lay off 21 % of its workforce, affecting at least 160 employees based on its previous head count of 800 folks. 67 vice presidents and several managers at the Palo Alto office will be laid off by December of this year. But wait.
Chad (17:04.951)
Layoffs? Layoffs?
Mmm.
Joel (17:26.498)
That's not all. Germany's Personio announced a headcount reduction of 115 people representing 6 % of its workforce. The CEO highlighted a slowing economy and internal inefficiencies as a top reason. Chad, what are your thoughts on the layoffs that are going on in our industry right now?
Chad (17:48.761)
Yeah, Upwork saw up on the revenue side of the house, which was good. And then they turned around and they started cutting heads. And just to clarify, there are 67 layoffs in Palo Alto. Eight of them were VPs and a slew of directors. So you have less staff, you need less leadership, less management, makes sense. It'll be interesting to be able to see if this was a knee jerk reaction and...
We shall see. When it comes to Personio, they've been due for a restructure. So I don't know if this is just the timing when it happens, but they've been due for a restructure, especially after all of the acquisitions they've had. That's the big key. You buy all these companies with all this staff, there's a lot of redundancy that's there. You start transitioning, you work through the redundancy, and this is what happens. You get kind of like a reallocation of resources.
Joel (18:45.378)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (18:48.259)
Hahaha
Joel (18:48.824)
So, so here we go, Chad, the year of the year of efficiency is in going on year three. Now, it started with Twitter. started with big tech. We talked about Amazon IQ recently and the millions that they were going to save on that end. talked about Google doing a quarter of their coding now, automatically with AI. And, and we talked about, this is going to start filtering down to smaller companies. The Upwork story, to me was a stock.
shareholder efficiency story. And I think a lot of shareholders are going to put pressure on companies to do just what upwork or do do what Amazon and others have done. So he talked about a savings of $60 million a year with the headcount reduction. The stock is at 50 % in the last month. This is going to be a theme that carries over layoff people, replace them with AI, see your stock price go up. Everyone is skiing in the house with leaving like that is going to be.
the story that we're talking about going into next year. Personio CEO actually mentioned inefficiencies as part of the reason why things were necessary to lay off people as well as the slowing economy. we'll talk, maybe Leven can talk a little bit about Europe and some of the challenges.
that Germany and a lot of the continent is facing. Personia was a German company. lot of their initial clients were in Germany. They are trying to grow here in the U S which we've talked about. But yeah, I mean, ultimately this is, we're going to talk about this a lot. We're going to talk a lot about, especially public companies, headcount reduction, stock price goes up, boats and hoes, rinse and repeat. And it's going to be a theme that we talk about quite a bit on this show. Leven, what are your thoughts?
Lieven (20:36.317)
Hmm. The whole personial thing. If people are talking about efficiency, I always wonder how is indeed AI going to impact that? And he didn't mention people are being replaced by AI, but if you read between the lines, it's kind of something like that. British Telecom, they were very clear about it. They fired 5,000 people and they said we are going to replace those people by AI. Herokalite first line helped us people, et cetera. So this is going to be a constant in the near future, I think.
Chad (20:49.891)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (21:06.749)
But if you are asking about the European economy, things don't look that good, to be honest. And with the whole American impact now, if Trump actually is going to go on with his universal import tax of between 10 and whatever percent, for Germany, for example, it would be a problem. We have plenty of
Chad (21:15.789)
No.
Lieven (21:33.485)
The car industry, for example, everything would be so much more expensive if you have an import tax. And for Belgium, Netherlands, France, Italy, we export a lot to the United States would be suddenly become problematic. But also the dollar is getting stronger compared to the euro. So importing will become more expensive to us as well. So we'll export less and we'll have problems importing.
then you are in for a big shitshow I think so there are suddenly talks again about a recession and I hope it's not the case we'll see but it won't be easy to come in here I think
Joel (22:11.128)
Sounds like it's time to start finding some big tech companies more and more. Let's send some fines to Google and Facebook and LinkedIn.
Lieven (22:15.997)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (22:21.019)
Well, my banker just said, no worries, we'll invest in American companies. And that was his answer. We just buy shares from their companies and everyone is happy. And I think from his little reality, he's probably right. His clients won't complain. mean, Trump was elected and the whole fund went up for, I don't know, so many percentages.
Chad (22:21.944)
start.
Joel (22:27.384)
There you go. There you go.
Joel (22:36.856)
Let's get
Joel (22:43.64)
Yeah.
Chad (22:43.724)
That's a short term blip. Give it some time. It all rounds back out. Just go ahead look at Berkshire Hathaway and go ahead and throw some money in that. Everybody relax.
Lieven (22:47.846)
Yeah.
Joel (23:00.376)
Just threatened to increase the price of wine, scotch, and cheese and watch the Americans, been to your, been to your well, been to your well. Well, speaking of some American companies and one Japanese company, let's talk, let's talk some revenue news this week. Zip recorder, zip recruiter reported a sharp 25 % year over year revenue drop ouch to 117 million in Q3 of this year with a net loss of $2.6 million.
Chad (23:08.532)
that's a call. Yes.
Joel (23:27.362)
This decline is attributed to a hiring slowdown, particularly among smaller businesses. Traffic to its site increased significantly, but the company forecast a 21 % revenue decrease for next quarter. But wait, there's more guys. There's more recruit holdings expects fewer U.S. job postings, but anticipates revenue growth in the HR tech division, including Indeed and Glassdoor.
A 4.5 % revenue increase is projected for the latter half of the fiscal year, despite having fewer job ads due to strategies like urgent hiring labels and targeted candidate matching indeed has weathered the storm a little better than ZipRecruiter. Chad, what stood out to you on these two quarterly earnings reports?
Chad (24:12.313)
Well, I'm going to go ahead and take some time. Let's carve out some indeed time here, shall we? Here at the Chat and Cheese podcast, we like to dig through all the bullshit and actually tell listeners what's going on. This really good story came from the AIM group, Tariq Ahmed Saeedi, I believe it is. Now, recruits stated the upward revision stemmed from quote unquote, yes, I'm doing air quotes, monetization improvements.
Joel (24:16.706)
Yeah, let's carve it out.
Chad (24:42.081)
the average revenue per job ad exceeded the rate of decrease in the volume of jobs, right? So from 2025 onward, Recruit will discontinue the pay-per-post advertising model, that's duration-based, for its domestic job boards. So you might ask yourself, self, why get rid of duration-based job ads? Well, because it's much easier to screw partners and customers with the aforementioned
Monetization improvements. So what does a monetization improvement really mean? Okay, simple. Raise the rates on PPC for the end customer and pay out a lower rate to your distribution partners, hence widening your margins. For example, hypothetically, let's say indeed paid a nursing website 50 cents per click to deliver traffic to a specific nursing job and then turns around and then charges the regional hospital customer
$2 per click. That's a $1 50 cent margin. Okay on every single click. So how do you perform monetization improvements easy instead of paying 50 cents on the nursing for the nursing website cut that down to 20 cents per click for traffic and then turn around and charge the regional hospital that clients and increased to 25 per click that provides a 30 cent gain per click on the partner side and 25 cent gain on the other side.
for the regional hospital, right? So that's 55 cents per click. Now, an additional 55 cents, which is added to the buck 50, that 55 cents doesn't seem like much until you understand the number of clicks indeed receives on a daily basis, which is very hard to not see that they're going to be getting mad cash out of this. So that's an example of monetization improvements, which is...
very hard to perform in a transparent duration based model, which is one of the reasons why you want to get away from the paper, paper post, right? Indeed can move the goal posts on the traffic partner and the customer at the same time. Now here's the biggest issue. Indeed in itself, they are really the pretty much the, the, the, the mark, the watermark for the rest of the industry. If every of the other
Joel (26:45.688)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (27:08.193)
Every other company who does this arbitrage, let's say, starts following Indeed's example, they're going to start fucking their partners and there's going to be a lot less money to be able to be made. this is what, again, an example of monetization and how Indeed is actually making money. Any questions, comments, concerns on the Indeed side before we jump into ZipRecruiter?
Joel (27:35.598)
I mean, I think when you're, it's good to be the king, right? When you're, when you're basically a monopoly, LinkedIn and indeed do this shit. have these dials and they turn. We talked about indeed went way too far. They went to 11, last year and the whole market smacked them. So they turned it down and then they said, okay, instead of 11, let's go to six first. Then we'll, we'll do another dial to six and then we'll do this to eight. they.
Chad (27:40.537)
Yeah.
Chad (27:45.709)
Duopoly, yeah.
Chad (27:54.925)
Yep. Yeah.
Joel (28:03.298)
They slowly kind of turn the screws on these ways to make money. I know that everyone I talked to, that works there is really, they're really high in their sourcing tool. I've heard a few recruiters sort of talk well on that. So there, there is a little bit of like new stuff that people are trying out and paying for, but this is largely when you're the 800 pound gorilla, you can tweak the knobs. And like Chad said, a penny here, a penny there.
Chad (28:06.435)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (28:31.382)
It's like office space, right? When they, they, did the code on the computer for like half a cent. And by the end of the day, they had like $50 million. So this is what indeed can do. Zip recruiter cannot do that. And we'll talk about them in a second, but, but leaving, have any thoughts on indeed?
Chad (28:38.733)
Yeah.
Lieven (28:48.709)
I was kindly asked by the nice, indeed, people not to mention them anymore. It's a fact. But no, no, I agreed with my contact, that indeed, which I've got a good understanding that I'll...
Lieven (29:08.701)
I look at it from a different way. So I'm not going to say a lot about, about in this, but one thing, one thing, you know, I, with all these AI powered, applying tools, which are coming up now like lazy applied.com and one push on a button, you can apply 1000 times. I think if I was indeed, I would launch something like CPA right now. Now is the time to launch it because cost per applicant with one push on a button, get 1000 applications. The number of applicants is going to rise.
Joel (29:10.487)
Yeah.
Chad (29:23.321)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Lieven (29:37.735)
This is the moment. And as you said, the duration based is just too difficult to fraud with.
Chad (29:45.111)
Yeah, well, they tried CPA last year, they tried CPA, was it SA or whatever the fuck it was, and it all just imploded.
Lieven (29:49.307)
Yeah, I know. But now they should try it again.
Joel (29:51.368)
It was like engaged, engaged applicant or something. They should try it again. That's right.
Chad (29:55.777)
Yeah.
Lieven (29:57.265)
But had a meeting with the nice people from Vonk yesterday, you know Vonk? No, no, but he is really nice. Vonk!
Chad (30:01.025)
Yeah, I was going to say, what exactly are they doing now? They were a distribution tool and now they're doing all of this AI efficiency stuff. It's like, can you just do what you say you're going to do? mean, it seems like...
Joel (30:02.25)
Everyone's nice who's a partner at House of HR.
Lieven (30:19.325)
How about they do even more than that? Whatever. They explained me something about CPA plus, which I kind of liked. Instead of just paying per applicant, you just pay per applicant. They already checked and they import them in your ATS qualified as an app. But Diane thought, okay, maybe that has a future. CPA, probably not, but CPA plus.
Chad (30:36.185)
qualified at Apkin. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Lieven (30:45.607)
Good work. they gave me 20 qualified applicants and I pay 40 euros per applicant, I might agree. Something like that.
Chad (30:46.412)
Sit.
Chad (30:52.055)
Yeah, yeah. CPQA makes sense. I don't think they're anywhere close to that. Let's go ahead and. Yes, and we don't have to talk nice if we don't want to. So ZipRecruiter's Demise, and this one actually Greg Spencer over at the AIM Group wrote about.
Lieven (30:58.896)
Yeah, we'll see.
Joel (30:59.566)
Two of us on this call are not executives at an industry player.
Lieven (31:05.085)
You
You don't
Chad (31:15.669)
ZipRecruiter is the number two recruitment site in the US after Recruit Holdings Indeed slash Glassdoor. So let's make sure our audience knows that Zip is way distant number two. mean, hell, Indeed is so far ahead of ZipRecruiter. Zip's lost Indeed's trail, and they're aimlessly wandering the frozen tundra for God sakes. The most pathetic piece of this is that they're
traffic went up and their revenues went down. Say that again. Their traffic went up and their revenues went down. To me, again, how they have not fired Ian out of that position as CEO, this is the time, guys.
I mean, you take a look at number one that's out there, still driving revenue. Yes, they're playing these dial games, as Joel would talk about, but they're still creating revenue. And Ian can't get the basic shit together when they've got the traffic that is exploding. It's a 13 % above, rise above that of the other platforms that are out there. Well, if that's the case.
Why aren't you making money? What the fuck? What the fuck?
Joel (32:39.247)
Here's a summary of the ZipRecruiter conference call.
Chad (32:47.865)
I don't get it. I don't get it.
Joel (32:48.078)
so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's bad to be the surf, the joker, the non-king, you will zip recruiter. They're throwing, mean, yeah, Phil's Phil's been busy. Phil's been chatting up some job seekers on the site. Unfortunately, it hasn't resulted in any revenue. they're, they're, they're creating zip intro. that's exciting. Right. That's, that's got, that's got the industry. That's got the industry super fired up zip.
Chad (33:03.34)
Apparently.
Chad (33:13.069)
Talk about too late.
Jesus.
Joel (33:17.964)
zip, zip, intro. so I'm going to call it now. I know it's not quite our prediction show, but it's time. Donnie's in the white house regulations like cut taxes cut. it's going to be cheaper to get money. It's time for recruit holdings to write a check and acquire zip recruiter so they can have the full American zip glass door. And indeed the whole package.
Chad (33:25.571)
Ha ha ha!
Joel (33:47.468)
Monster and career builder are now aligned. Like this is, this is the time zip recruiters floating out there, recruit holdings, their market, their, their, their worth less than their market cap is just below a billion dollars. That's couch cushion money for recruit holdings, write a check, end it, let, let, let Ian go off in the sunset. They're on the beach in LA, like let him go. And this, this whole zip recruiter thing can be done.
And maybe, maybe because ZipRecruiter is already public, they can roll that into one big ZipRecruiter, indeed, whatever, and maybe spin off a different public IPO with all these three job boards. And that would be a fun thing to talk about on the podcast, but it's time. It's time for recruit to back up the Brinks truck and buy ZipRecruiter.
Joel (34:41.313)
And that's all I got.
Lieven (34:42.173)
That's all I got.
Chad (34:42.891)
Indy are leaving.
Lieven (34:46.351)
Nothing to add, I agree, let them buy Zepp Recruiter and we'll get rid of them.
Chad (34:50.137)
We'll be back after the break.
Joel (34:52.054)
And the odds are good that it'll all work out.
Joel (34:59.438)
Let's take a quick break, get refills, and we'll be right back after this message from our sponsor.
Joel (35:11.137)
and we wait for Chad.
Lieven (35:13.917)
Did you check?
Joel (35:14.894)
feel like the show's going pretty well. How about you?
Lieven (35:18.973)
It's okay. I should have been more prepared about the Hedicota and Zip revenue, but we don't have Zip I think in any of the countries we're active in. So I don't really know.
Joel (35:20.878)
It's okay.
Joel (35:34.188)
No, and it's easy for you to say like, is nothing.
Lieven (35:41.765)
And the people from Indeed, they contacted us actually and kindly asked for me to behave. Nice. Yeah, sort of. But otherwise, they won't take me skiing. But I do, I really do.
Chad (35:48.121)
That's a lot of beer.
Joel (35:50.254)
They asked you to be nice.
Joel (36:00.366)
Well, you love skiing, man. I get it. I get it. We got to play the game, man. We got to play the game. All right. So I'll bring us. Yes. 30, 35 minutes, edit shit out.
Chad (36:08.045)
Yep. It makes your Sergey cuts all that out.
Chad (36:15.917)
And then we'll come back after this ad. There we go.
Joel (36:18.382)
talking about. All right, humans, time to meet your replacements. Serve Robotics, an autonomous delivery company, is acquiring Veeboo, the maker of AutoCado, a machine that makes guacamole. Known for its connection to, you guessed it, one of my favorites, Chad. Chipotle is in the house. That's right. Okay.
Chad (36:40.697)
Nah.
Joel (36:44.278)
So we got our cooks taken care of. They're gone. Now let's go to salespeople. 11X, an AI sales automation platform has secured $50 million in series B funding to enhance its digital workers named Alice and Jordan who automate sales tasks. Time to buy some Nvidia stock maybe. CEO Jensen Wong recently said in an interview that he predicts that AI employees will work across areas, including marketing.
and supply chain roles and will be able to complete work just as people do. The result Chad, that we're finding worker loneliness, anxiety and fear. What me worried? Chad, are you scared of our robot overlords and our demise?
Chad (37:33.305)
No, and we've talked about culture on podcast after podcast after podcast for a while now. And we recently recorded a podcast with our friends over at HR, vine about employee surveys, but the underpinning of that discussion and this one is employee engagement, which is the responsibility of leadership. So if loneliness is happening, why wasn't leadership doing something about it? Because they didn't know?
because they never asked, maybe because they just didn't give a fuck, right? So who knows? But what we do is that this type of, this culture is created by companies and they have less than happy employees, right? Which means less productivity, higher attrition, more money spent on acquiring and training new talent and lost revenue due to everything I just mentioned before. So,
We're still in the wild, wild west phase of AI and creating efficiencies. We're exactly at the point where leaders who engage their staff understand the needs of their people and delivering on the feedback for the future. This to me demonstrates where there was a 166 engineers at a biomedical company where they were feeling loneliness and they were dropping productivity. That is not their fault. That is the fault of
old, traditional, lazy management and leadership. We need to actually evolve. We need to pivot and we need to understand that we don't need everybody in the fucking office doing work. And at the end of the day, it comes down to profits, which obviously it's the capitalist way to do things. If we're not keeping our employees happy, they're going to leave and it's going to cost us a shit ton of cash and revenue.
Joel (39:32.398)
I'm gonna start with Chipotle, big shocker, Chad.
Chad (39:35.383)
Yeah.
That is my life!
Joel (39:41.966)
I've said it before, there's, there's not a company in America, at least probably Europe as well in the West that isn't having the discussion. How do we do more with less people? How do we continue the profit machine and have fewer people doing the job? And these companies are going to happen. Your guacamole is going to be made by a robot. Your burger is going to be flipped by a robot. You're
Chad (39:49.421)
Mm.
Joel (40:08.972)
Buffalo wings are going to be dropped in the fryer by a robot. There's going to be fewer people. However, there is a shortage of people. So it's either have a robot do it, or you got to wait a long time or not maybe get it all. And that maybe that store doesn't open at all. that's just going to happen. I mean, I go to my local McDonald's, I have a kiosk. I don't talk to a cashier anymore. I put a number on my table and my food comes out.
So this is going to happen and companies are going to have this like whole stack of we'll come in, we'll do everything for you, cook your food and everything. And this is where that world is going. Now we need people with jobs to buy the food. So at some point, like there's a breaking point of, geez, we don't have any employees to buy the food. So what does that balance look like? Not quite sure, but it's robots don't eat burritos yet. So that's a problem on the, on the sales side and the, the, the AI employee.
Chad (40:53.773)
this.
Joel (41:05.132)
Like most particular startups, like sales is a hard thing to hire for. It's a hard job. You can go through a lot of time wasting on people to source leads. I mean, just a lot of time and money. Every startup in the world that does sales is going to have an AI component to sales. Like a voice is going to call, emails are going to go out, drip campaigns, whatever. And then the actual sale where they talk to a human being might actually be a human being.
But that is going to happen. Customer service is going to get hit. Marketing is going to get hit. what that looks like. My fear is that the people who do an entry level jobs that get their feet wet in these sort of roles before they become a top tier salesperson. I don't know where they're going to come from. I don't know what the, what the entry level job looks like because I think AI is going to do a lot of it. Nvidia is going to be at the forefront of this. So, so for, for him, I don't want say he sugarcoated it, but in the interview that he had, said, he said something.
Lieven (41:52.764)
Yeah.
Chad (42:03.529)
Of course. yeah.
Joel (42:05.088)
It's unlikely to lead to layoffs. Okay, dude. maybe, but there's going to be a lot of people that, need Nvidia chips to service all this AI that's, that's basically selling companies. I mean, if you look at, leaving mentioned perplexity and chat GPT and what they're doing. But if you look at, you look at some of the co-pilot stuff that's going on, like it's equal parts, scary as shit. And it's equal parts, like cool as shit because AI is going to start knowing your, your
Chad (42:09.239)
it's gonna lead to layoffs.
Joel (42:32.982)
your activity on websites and apps and what you're doing. So when you say, when Chad says, book me a flight to, wherever he goes, Athens, will know that he likes this kind of, he likes Delta. He likes this kind of seat. He likes to leave this time in the morning. Like it's going to know everything about Chad so he can just put that off and have a, a robot make his reservations. That's coming to the workforce.
Chad (42:43.054)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (42:47.095)
Yeah, when I like to fly,
Chad (42:56.057)
But I'll own that, which is awesome. Right? I think that's, well, yeah, that's the big key. I think here in Europe, you will definitely own it. It'll be different in the States, or it's gonna be much different in the States, at least starting out.
Joel (42:59.168)
You hope.
Joel (43:08.588)
Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked about McDonald's having face recognition where you drive to the drive-through and it's like, it's Joel Joel, double, know, double quarter pounder meal, a medium diet Coke. Like, like, do you want the normal you want? You want your regular like, yep. And then like we're, we're on, good to go.
Lieven (43:20.125)
Thanks.
Chad (43:21.496)
Hello China.
Lieven (43:27.663)
Is that legal in the US? Okay, in Europe it's totally illegal. It's not possible, but I would have loved it. It's technically possible, of course.
Chad (43:29.675)
Not in the US, no.
Joel (43:33.642)
Okay. But it's possible. Anyway, my point is like, Nvidia is going to get really rich on all this automation. So it behooves him to like turn the volume down on fear and loathing and anxiety in the workforce because Nvidia is going to profit greatly from this. Where this whole thing shakes out. don't know. we can't go fully automated. Cause like I said, robots don't eat burritos, but companies are
Chad (43:37.315)
Hahaha
Chad (43:42.905)
Mm.
Joel (44:01.794)
doing everything they can for their shareholders, for the executive, whatever, do the, do the work that they do with fewer people. That's just a reality that we're living with.
Chad (44:11.011)
Profits over people, yes.
Thoughts leaving? You're not going to see robots flipping burgers in Brussels in the fast food? Huh? Huh? Huh? They might.
Joel (44:23.014)
They might make waffles in Belgium. The waffle making robot, must have one. There you go.
Lieven (44:28.541)
The waffle flipping jobs, No, because I think people are less expensive than robots for doing these kinds of jobs, which is a hard reality. But I'm not anxious, not really, because hybrid teams are already existing. It's a reality. have a manager managing a team consisting of people and then some bots, which are doing also some kind of jobs. So this is
Chad (44:44.632)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (44:53.851)
already happening, but it's not like we see them as a colleague. It's just a tool other people are using. And the moment that tool is replacing real people, it's becoming not a colleague, but it's replacing colleagues. So the loneliness might be a thing. But in many cases, I see a lot of advantages. If I compare AI tools to my current colleagues, I think AI is polite, AI is patient, it's far more intelligent and less artificial than my colleagues.
Chad (45:19.641)
Mm-hmm.
Lieven (45:20.125)
It does the work, I take the credit, AI doesn't complain. I mean, the list goes on. I like AI. But the problem is, of course, and that's something Joel also said, the moment that AI is going to replace starter jobs. So when someone is graduating now from, let's say, economics, not economics, information technology, coding, for the first time in 20 years or so, those people are not finding a job in Europe. Why? Because the basic coding jobs
are done by AI and we still need very experienced people to become IT architects, et cetera, but you don't get the possibility to become experienced. And that's a problem I'm afraid of. The base layers of the jobs are disappearing and are replaced by tools and big tech companies like Microsoft and Google, they can still just hire starters and prepare them for a career within the company. But it's the...
mid-sized companies, they're not going to invest in someone they don't really need. So they're not going to invest in and training people. And there I see a big problem with youth unemployment, et cetera. And this is something we have to fix.
Chad (46:30.195)
Yeah, I think so. If you take a look at like British Telecom, as you'd said earlier, they are looking at getting rid of 5,000 people. They still have hundreds of open positions on their website. There's a restructuring. There's a different way that they're going to start using people. Entry level is going to be different because those entry level individuals are going to be powered with assistance as well.
So instead of them starting out as base level, now they're going to have that assistant to be able to help them. They're going to be able to get more, more things done and they're going to be more focused on QA, QC, right? So the way that we think of some of these layoffs, it's, it's literally going to be restructuring because they need different types of talent and skill sets. And then everybody's going to be bedwetting because it's like, my God, there's layoffs. Well, yeah, with this huge change.
I mean, this is a tectonic shift in the actual landscape, but we're still going to need people to do that. So are we going to have entry level people? We will. They will be powered with AI, which means they're not going to be the entry level that we used to know. Right. So I think that's again, that's my opinion on how it's how it's going to actually evolve in the workforce.
Chad (47:46.521)
I try, man. I'm trying. I'm Euro Chad. I'm Euro Chad.
Lieven (47:47.101)
That's a positive way to look at it. No, no, I hope you're right.
Joel (47:50.476)
He's EuroChat, everything is good. Everything is awesome. Everything is cool when you're, we'll be right back.
Joel (48:03.406)
All right, Chad, we have a Drake star story just because Drake star is so fucking fun to say Drake star. All right. They, they released some interesting numbers this week. in 2024, the HR tech sector saw over 800 deals with $7.2 billion invested. they highlighted AI adoption in HR as the driving force. Chad, there was a lot of information on that report. What stood out to you?
Chad (48:06.926)
Yes.
Drake Star.
Chad (48:30.937)
So 40 &A transactions in Q3 of 2024 in this sector alone, 37 % of which happened in Europe. That to me was pretty awesome. That was a very large chunk of &A happening in Europe. And one of the things that I think we've seen, Joel, is that we've seen tons of small startups come out of Europe.
Joel (48:44.643)
Yeah.
Chad (48:58.657)
that have been incredibly innovative. And that was different from 10 years ago, right? So we're starting to see much more innovation come out of Europe. And obviously we're seeing a lot of &A coming out there. And then the top AI use cases in recruiting around interviewing, handling admin tasks, recruitment-based tasks, personalized training. We talked to a ton of companies that were at the Paradox Client Board.
And the first thing that they said, easy button right out of the gate, get rid of scheduling. Get rid of that fucking scheduling, dude. It's so much faster. You don't need people to do it. Not to mention it's a pain in the ass. So I think this report again, Euro Chad being positive. was all, it was all good.
Joel (49:47.224)
Yeah, it was. so what stood out to me a couple of things, the report said only 25 % of companies are employing, this for H H R functions. So to your point, this is going to compound significantly because what, when we talk to companies, it's like, well, we took one step and that one step led to how much in savings, how much in time saved.
Chad (50:00.121)
Mm.
Chad (50:15.011)
Huge. Yes.
Joel (50:16.098)
how much inefficiency. it's like, so we're going to spend a lot more on AI than we were because I felt like this past year and the year before was sort of like, we're going to baby step this thing and see what happens. The people who are baby stepping are like, fuck yeah, we're going knee deep into AI. That's going to lead more and more companies to do that little test run, dip our toe in, see how it's going. So this thing is just going to compound with companies spending money and more money on AI tools. if we're only at 25%.
of that iceberg. Like I suspect we're to talk a lot about more AI tools and companies leveraging a lot more of the power of that, which I think also is going to give companies more gravitas to buy companies to invest in other companies. Like I see Workday and other companies that have incubators and invest in companies spend more money. Yeah, spend more.
Chad (51:13.314)
No reason to build.
Joel (51:15.362)
Put more chips on the table, like bet on more of these startups, because if one of them takes off, it's going to be a huge whirlwind of cash. So yeah, the fact that we talk about this every week and we think it's huge and we think that 99 % of companies are using this, that's not the case, man. We are just at the cusp, the cusp of this tsunami. And, there are a few things that could, guess, derail it, a global conflict, et cetera. But for the most part, like.
Chad (51:34.657)
Not yet. Yep.
Joel (51:45.142)
I'll be, I'll be a little Euro chat on this and say like, this was a great report and a lot of opportunity and money is going to be flowing into our space, which is good for everybody.
Chad (51:54.585)
which makes Leaven happy. I can see him smiling right there. So what do you think Leaven? Especially that big number in Europe, man. I mean, that's awesome.
Lieven (51:57.369)
Yeah, definitely. You're all leaving.
Yeah, and I think it's only getting better because we're just at the start of a cycle which is going to be going on for quite some time. And I also think that this is a perfect moment to be young and enthusiastic and hardworking and creative and launch a little company. The big ones are eager to buy creativity now because they don't have it in them anymore. They're too big. So if I was...
Chad (52:08.569)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (52:28.769)
You mean if you were with a big company, house of HR. Yeah. Okay.
Joel (52:30.985)
Hahaha
Lieven (52:32.623)
No, no, no. If I was 20 years younger and we're back, back where I was 20 years ago, I definitely would launch something. But indeed we are, all companies are looking at startups and
Chad (52:43.673)
Well, it's good advice though from a big company, right? Who does acquisitions. That's right. Yeah.
Joel (52:47.502)
You're looking to buy,
Lieven (52:49.617)
Yeah, sure. But there's also the backside of it. For each 10 companies that start, one will make it and that one we're going to buy. But the other nine probably have learned a lot and might do better in the future, but they didn't succeed. So it's not all glory. But definitely it's easier than it was a few years ago now.
Chad (52:52.833)
huh.
Joel (53:08.632)
Yeah. And don't forget the Aqua hiring baby. The people that you can get when you buy those companies and two companies that are looking, looking for boats and hoes. it's time, Chad, we haven't played in a while time for who'd you rather in case you haven't played this with us. talk about two companies, startups that have recently gotten cash and the boys here decide which of the two they would rather, you know what I'm saying? So let's get to contestant number one in this corner.
Lieven (53:13.831)
Yeah, awesome.
Chad (53:19.072)
huh.
Joel (53:38.456)
Toothio, a Phoenix based digital staffing platform for the dental industry has raised $5 million. Funds will support scaling efforts, expansion into new U.S. markets and setting new standards in dental staffing flexibility and productivity in 2025. Founded in 2022, the company employs 46 people. That is Toothio. And in this corner, we have Social Crowd.
The U S based company has secured $2.5 million in seed funding. The funds will be used to grow the company's team and broaden its market presence. Calling itself quote fit bit for work and quote social crowds platform helps in tracking employee goals, sending reminders and providing immediate rewards to boost productivity and focus founded in 2022. They employ eight associates. So Chad, the table is set. have toothy versus social crowd.
Who'd rather?
Chad (54:38.339)
So I actually like both these startups for different reasons. But when I look at an industry that is ripe for disruption, Leaven knows this because they do it a lot. It's the staffing industry. In 2023, the revenue of the staffing industry worldwide totaled roughly 593 billion US dollars. The traditional staffing model will die and more scalable and Uber like models will definitely take its place. So I'd rather
Tooth Yo, start niche, prove the model, and then expand into nursing, blue collar, tech, pick whatever lane you like. But major disruption in staffing will happen. As we've seen, none of the big players, the Ronstars, the Adeccos, they don't understand. I mean, they've pretty much, the way that I see it, they've become the blockbuster in...
Joel (55:16.238)
Hmm. Hmm.
Chad (55:34.999)
This is the point where we're gonna say, you know, I'm not gonna be kind and rewind. We're gonna find a streaming service, kids.
Joel (55:45.846)
All right, Toothio comes out on top if you know what I'm saying on that one.
Chad (55:50.553)
You
Joel (55:53.166)
Do want a big fish in a smaller pond or do you want a small fish in a big pond is to me the question on this. And I will, I will tell a little story here. I have an 80, almost 85 year old dad. and he doesn't listen to the show. So I'm not worried about embarrassing him, but he has, he has, he has roughly three of his original teeth still in his mouth. he recently had a few teeth pulled. He's got to get some wisdom or some false teeth anyway.
Chad (56:08.185)
Ha
Lieven (56:08.445)
Yeah.
Joel (56:20.728)
Teeth are a big deal in his life. And I don't know if you've heard, but there's a lot of baby boomers that are getting older and need medical attention and help, which means a flood of potential dental customers are ready to flood the offices of dental hygienist everywhere. They're only serving eight markets right now in eight markets in the United States. So there's a huge runway to open this thing up in American.
cities as well as North America and head over to Europe at some point. the potential market is huge for them. Everyone has teeth. Last time I checked, or at least most of us have some form of teeth. There's no risk of automation in dental work. I don't see going to get my teeth clean and have a robot backup and like start messing around with my teeth and my gums and in my mouth. Like I don't need that kind of stress with my dental appointment. So we're going to need people.
Chad (57:10.297)
Boop, boop, boop.
Lieven (57:14.054)
You
Joel (57:17.474)
to do the job. We're going to have more people that need the job done. They've just scratched the surface. They already have 30,000 dental professionals that are on this site, ready to work. Toothio is the one definitely that I would pick, but Social Crowd, small fish in a big pond. There's so many companies trying to engage workers, mobile engagement.
The examples they had were really strange. it was, you know, get a dollar for five specials that you sell is, the margins that tight that you can only offer a dollar for like five? This was a real life case study they had on the site. So I don't know if $10 is going to like really energize, your wait staff to like go the extra mile, and sell specials. So there's just too much competition. just, I just, they're, they're hopefully going to be bought, but toothy
could be like a juggernaut in the dental realm. So for me, I'm doing four on the Down Unders, baby, because I'd rather two Theo.
All right, leaving, the tire, join in.
Lieven (58:32.759)
I totally agree with both of you when I... No, it's your...
Joel (58:34.424)
Sorry, it's not break a tie. Chad's beer is osmosis-ing through the screen. There is water on this, I promise.
Chad (58:36.419)
Yeah, yeah. Join the club.
Lieven (58:44.879)
I agree with both of you. mean, I looked into Tofio and I asked Tofio, a stupid name is Tofio. I thought it reminds me of Tief and then I read the article. Okay. It's about Tief. So probably a good name after all. Tofio. Okay. Okay. And then I also believe in niches and you have to specialize and Tofio and I feel flexible staffing platforms are definitely the future in a niche like healthcare. And then within healthcare,
teeth and the dentist business, you can't go wrong. And I'm not sure if it's the same in the US, but in Europe, if you want to go to a dental office, you have to plan your toothache six months in advance because you just can't enter. If they really like you and you've got an emergency, they might see you two days later. But most of the offices don't even accept new patients anymore. So there is really, really, really a shortage. So now...
Chad (59:23.961)
Yeah
Lieven (59:39.471)
They are hiring from Eastern European countries, but those degrees aren't the same. So those people aren't allowed to do actual, and they're called dentists and let's say Romania, but they aren't allowed to do anything in Belgium, for example. So that's the whole problem. So I think a platform like that definitely has reason to exist. And if they do it right, it can't go wrong. A social crowd, looked into it and I didn't like him and I'll end my story there.
Joel (59:49.271)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (01:00:10.295)
Nuff said.
Lieven (01:00:11.837)
Hmm.
Joel (01:00:13.07)
All right, sounds like you're picking, it's a hat trick for Toothio and it's gonna be another hat trick for my dad jokes, everybody. Leaving in recognition of your constant skiing trips, my dad joke is as follows. How do you find Will Smith in the snow? How do you find Will Smith in the snow?
Lieven (01:00:15.847)
Toothia. Toothia.
Chad (01:00:15.993)
Toothio
It's yeah, it's clean. It's clean winter.
Lieven (01:00:38.269)
No, I didn't.
Joel (01:00:40.024)
Chad, any guesses?
Chad (01:00:41.913)
No, you got me.
Lieven (01:00:43.012)
Will Smith and the Snow.
Joel (01:00:45.454)
To find Will Smith in the snow, you just have to follow the fresh prints. Get it? Fresh prints.
Chad (01:00:50.681)
ha!
Lieven (01:00:50.717)
amazing, amazing, amazing.
Joel (01:00:54.86)
We out.
Chad (01:00:55.339)
Okay, my bad. We out!
Lieven (01:00:56.67)
Way out.
Joel (01:00:58.336)
I'd like that one.
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