In this conversation, Joel and Chad interview Stacey Gordon, founder and principal consultant at Rework Work, about unconscious inclusion, skills-based hiring, and the politicization of DEI. Stacey emphasizes the importance of actively working towards unconscious inclusion. She discusses the need for dialogue and open conversations to bridge the gap between different perspectives. Stacey also addresses the challenges of changing mindsets and the role of education in DEI.
She highlights the benefits of skills-based hiring for diversity and inclusion and the need for ongoing training and implementation. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the politicization of DEI and the importance of shifting mindsets in the workplace.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:23.482)
ohhhh, Yeah, it's your favorite guilty pleasure also known as the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always riding shotgun is Chad. So wash as we welcome Stacy Gordon founder and principal consultant at rework work. That's a mouthful Stacy. Welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast.
Chad (00:35.82)
Hello.
Stacey Gordon (00:47.727)
Thank you, thank you. I think I got called the most dangerous woman one time by Fox News, you know, I'm in good company.
Joel (00:56.989)
I love it. love it. And on that note, a lot of our listeners that aren't watching Fox may not know who you are. Give us sort of a quick 20 second, 20, 30 second rundown of who you are.
Chad (01:02.957)
Ha ha ha!
Stacey Gordon (01:09.26)
Sure, so I actually live in the LA area. I love to travel. That would probably be the thing people know about me the most. I just chatting with Chad about Portugal. so I went on three cruises this summer. Really enjoy getting out and about and just love chatting with different people. I think because of the work that I do, I'm always excited to meet new people, learn about new cultures.
Chad (01:25.144)
Very nice.
Stacey Gordon (01:38.816)
even just new music, I'm gonna age myself when I say this, but I just found out that Megan Thee Stallion has a song with a J -pop rapper, I guess. And I was like, I didn't know, and I'm listening to this song and I thought it was really great, because I just love this combination, right, of like rap and Japanese artists. yeah, and my kids called me old, because they were like, this has been out forever,
Chad (02:04.014)
Ha
Joel (02:04.647)
That doesn't sound like the Woody Guthrie tape that I have in my bedroom. What's your favorite place to visit as a traveler? Chad and I both enjoy traveling.
Stacey Gordon (02:15.484)
I actually don't have a favorite place to visit. I love to get to new places. My favorite mode of transportation would be cruise.
Joel (02:18.759)
Hmm.
Joel (02:25.636)
Cruises are good as long as not a pandemic.
Chad (02:25.696)
Is it, yes. Now, is that because you can pop and hit so many places because you're on a cruise? Okay. Okay. I got you.
Stacey Gordon (02:32.618)
Yes, two reasons. One, I don't have to pack and unpack because I've done that through Italy. You know, it's like one city pack and then you got to, you know, drag your bags through cobblestones to another city, get on a train, right? And it's just tiresome. So cruise ship, you unpack one time.
Joel (02:48.251)
What she meant to say was the open bar and the unlimited buffet because that's my personal favorite.
Chad (02:52.078)
So, quick question, why were you called the most dangerous woman? I want to hear this.
Stacey Gordon (03:01.174)
Well, it was actually really weird. was sitting, you know, I being interviewed and the interviewer said that and I thought, she said something like, up next, you know, is this guest and she starts going on and doing all these descriptions. And I thought, I thought I was next. maybe somebody else is next, right? So I'm sitting there in the green screen like waiting and then she comes on and goes, Stacey Gordon. And I was like, you were talking about me. But it was because.
Chad (03:04.803)
Hmm?
Chad (03:27.5)
So was the hype train. They had the hype train going is what they're saying. Okay.
Stacey Gordon (03:31.138)
Well, at the time I had published an article that said, gosh, what was it? It was something about women -only networks. And so apparently because I was promoting gender forward and the fact that women, we need the networks in order to be able to advance ourselves in the workplace, same way men have been doing for centuries. Apparently that was very controversial thinking 10 years ago.
Chad (03:40.749)
Mm
Joel (03:59.111)
So dangerous. So dangerous.
Chad (04:00.716)
Yeah, with all these, the old boys clubs that we've had for hundreds of fucking years now, you know, wait a minute, these women are having these talent collectives per se. And yeah, come on, come on.
Stacey Gordon (04:01.738)
It's.
Joel (04:11.357)
Peace.
Stacey Gordon (04:13.472)
Yeah, apparently I was rallying women up and causing, you know, taking women out of the kitchen, I guess.
Chad (04:19.512)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. So in your daily work, one of the things that we found out is that you focus on unconscious inclusion, which I think is awesome. And it flies in the face of unconscious bias, which I don't know how anybody's unconsciously bias anymore. It could just be me. I think we've been hit enough and we understand who we are and who we've grown up with. Maybe I'm wrong. But unconscious inclusion, what does it mean?
It's just happening. We don't have to work on it anymore. Help me out here.
Stacey Gordon (04:53.792)
Yes. So unconscious inclusion is that space where what we really want, right, is to, it's a progression. You want to get to a place where we are unconsciously including people because right now we unconsciously exclude. That's our default. So in order to basically just the opposite of that, right. But to get to unconscious inclusion, we first have to understand unconscious bias and it is a progression. So you first need to be
Chad (05:09.218)
Yes.
Stacey Gordon (05:21.236)
you know, understand that we have unconscious bias, what is it? Then we have to be conscious of our biases because we, you you just said, well, how can we still be unconsciously biased? Because we are not being conscious of our biases. So if we aren't taking that step to be aware and to actually pay attention to the ways in which we are all biased, then we can never get to unconscious inclusion, right? Because then you got to be conscious of inclusion, which means actively thinking about ways we can include.
And then we will finally get to a place where we can then do it unconsciously. So it's a stage.
Joel (05:52.349)
She just blew my mind. Wow.
Chad (05:53.846)
Yeah, but here's the problem. We've got so many white dudes that are sensitive and saying, now I have to worry about these things now. They're conscious. That then makes them conscious and they know that they're doing some things wrong and that's making them uncomfortable, right? So again, it feels like we've kind of gone past the conscious bias part and people are just being plain old standard bias.
Stacey Gordon (06:10.336)
Yep.
Chad (06:20.058)
And we've got to try to point that out. And I'm not saying that we shame people, but at the end of the day, I don't know, maybe it comes to that because, know, when you have nothing but an all white executive staff, all white men executive staff, I don't know what to say other than you're not actually speaking or I should say you're not actually using the actions of your words when you say diversity is
important and I was using air quote Jess.
Stacey Gordon (06:51.958)
Well, and most people, so that's always the question, is diversity important? And that's a question that a lot of folks can't really answer. So the work that I do, I ask that question and they say, yes. And I go, great, how? How is it important? Why is it important to your work? Answer me that, then we can talk about how I can help you.
Chad (06:56.589)
Yeah.
Stacey Gordon (07:18.252)
But if you can't answer that question, then you're not ready. And I can come back next year when you figured it out. Or I can help you figure it out, right, if you want to do that. But for some people, just, they really are not ready. And I have learned in this business that it is a very tough business. And I don't want to spend time hitting my head against a brick wall, because it just ends up with me with a bloody forehead.
Chad (07:24.846)
There you go. There you go. Yeah.
Chad (07:38.52)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (07:42.983)
Well, some people do have an answer for it and it's probably not the answer that you want to get. Bill Ackman, a famous investor said, quote, that DEI is inherently a racist and illegal movement. see companies like Meta, Lyft, Home Depot, Wayfair and others slash DEI programs, if not eliminate them altogether. So from where you sit, where are we with DEI? Have we taken two step forward and five steps back?
since the George Floyd murder, where are we in terms of where you are looking at this issue?
Stacey Gordon (08:18.946)
We absolutely have taken two steps forward and 28 steps back. But it's, I think, the way that just how humans are. So many moons ago, I used to work in financial services. And I used to describe the stock market, right? Because I would have people crying like, my money's going. Yeah, I would say think about a kid walking up the stairs, right?
holding a yo -yo. The yo -yo was going up and down, up and down, up and down, but the kid is still going up the stairs. He's still ascending. So at the end of the day, he's gonna get to the top of the stairs. We're still moving, right? But there's gonna be lots of dips. And it's kind of that same way with DEI. We are moving. If we look back at the change that has happened, there's been a ton of change. But in the moment, it feels like nothing is happening and you really wanna just, you
yell and scream, why isn't anyone listening? Why isn't anyone doing anything? But I think that's that space where it does, definitely, things are happening, but we want things to move faster. I mean, if you look at all the kids that are protesting in colleges right now, right? I'm excited for them to come back to school and start protesting and get them like, yes, get them.
Because somebody has to. You have no kids, you have no responsibilities. It is technically your responsibility to be out there and protest. We need you to do this.
Chad (09:50.328)
Do think they're moving the needle though? I mean, do you think they're moving the needle?
Joel (09:51.015)
So I'm curious.
Stacey Gordon (09:55.616)
Who? The protesters? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because we are talking about it, right? And so if we're talking about it, it means that at some point someone has to address it. And if we look at how we address it, right, we can use being here in LA, the example of USC versus UCLA. One addressed it really terribly and one addressed it a little bit better, right? So we can also look at that and say, huh, how did they handle?
Chad (09:56.076)
Kids. Yeah. Okay.
Stacey Gordon (10:23.5)
dealing with this issue, what did they do? We've got one school that's out firing professors, dragging students off to jail, right? Is that how we're going to be remembered? And I always tell people that you can think about history, right? And we're gonna look back and say, well, which side of history do you wanna be on when they write the history books about what happened? What do want people to say about you?
Joel (10:46.685)
I appreciate your stairwell with a yo -yo. I've never heard it explained like that and I appreciate that. I worry though that you have two different staircases with two different kids sort of traveling at different speeds. And maybe because it's a political season, DEI has been unfortunately politicized to where you have two sides thinking about it in very different ways.
Stacey Gordon (11:01.116)
Thank
Chad (11:08.664)
and weaponize.
Joel (11:13.241)
What's your perspective on how this has been politicized, how we can bring both sides together or can we?
Stacey Gordon (11:21.58)
we definitely can bring both sides together. think it just requires people having conversation and being open. So again, there's dialogue that is needed. And when we want to debate rather than dialogue, we're always going to have issues. When we want to show up and always want to be right, we're going to have issues. I think that where we stand, like, again, when you look back at things, you know, I think to myself, how can you
when you look at, know, we're going political and we think about who our two top contenders are, right, for the highest office in the land. One is a card carrying racist. And the other is maybe somebody that, you know, has done some stuff that maybe we're not all that happy with, right? And probably we wouldn't vote for either one of them if we had more choice. But we are in a society where we don't have choice.
So that's actually something we should be working to fix, right? We should be thinking about our political system needs more options and how do we get that? We can't fix that right now. So there is so much of a broader issue that is going on. And I think everybody wants to kind of dig in their heels and say, I'm right. And I, you know, I don't want to listen to anybody else that is, is, you know, saying anything different. And if we really want to have a society that is going to come together, we do have to hear.
Chad (12:27.244)
Mm
Stacey Gordon (12:48.586)
other sides of it. Now we don't have to agree, right? We absolutely don't have to agree. And I'll use an example, a non -political example. I met a guy at a networking event and he was just saying some really sexist things. And I was like, what in the hell? And I thought, know what, Stacey, even a networking event, you don't actually have to talk to this man. You can just walk away. But, and I'll be in a hundred percent transparent here. I stayed and talked to him because he was a black man.
And in my mind, I thought if he was a white man, I would just write him off, right? The reason I stick with the reason his race matters is because I said, how can you as a black man also be sexist? Because you understand what it's like to be discriminated against. I could get it. Like a white guy doesn't understand what it's like to be discriminated against. So I can write that off. I can understand it. But I'm like, you sir, are a black man. And I'm pretty sure you understand what it's like. So how are you now sexist?
So long story short, explained he was in this very white -based industry, which is basically commercial real estate, right? In downtown Los Angeles, where it's like 98 % white men. And so he had to fit into this bro culture. he basically, what he had done is he was covering, right? He was starting to, what's the word? Assimilate into this culture.
that really wasn't him. But when you were around people every day saying these things about women, treating women a certain way, right? In order to fit in and to get the business, he has to speak that same way. And what has happened is over time, he's been in that industry for a decade or more, that has now become part of who he is. And I was like, huh, you know what? I understand it, right? I understand how you got there. I don't like it. I don't agree with it.
Chad (14:21.176)
Mm
Stacey Gordon (14:46.55)
but I understand. And so I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna write you off completely, but you do realize that you are really sexist. And this conversation that we had, he said, know, I appreciate you mentioning, like we talked through some of the things and he was like, yeah, I just kind of see how you come to that conclusion. I'm like, I'm really glad to hear that you noticed this. You might wanna think about this a little more, right? And it's the same with politics. If we don't have the conversations and start to understand where people are coming from,
Chad (14:52.458)
You
Stacey Gordon (15:14.912)
we can never get to a place of at least understanding where somebody else, what their perspective is. With that being said, I will never understand the perspective of somebody who is blatantly racist, right? You are KKK member, I have nothing to say to you. You are very clear in your wrongness on that. And I'm not gonna spend my time trying to educate you, because it's a complete waste of everyone's time.
Joel (15:41.469)
Hmm.
Chad (15:44.634)
Well, Joel talked about Bill Ackman's actions, which also cost him one of his companies going IPO. So it's actually costing him money to be racist out in public. Right. The question is, we've got Sherm, who now calls DIIND, so the Society of Human Resource Professionals, they've taken out the equity altogether, and they've moved diversity to the end. Right. So we and we have a black man.
Who is heading up Shurm? So the question is, what do we do? I mean, it seems like I can't, okay, Bill Ackman, there was a response to the way that his actions, right? Do we feel like there's going to be a response from the HR community to Shurm in these types of actions? Yeah? Okay.
Stacey Gordon (16:18.113)
Yes.
Stacey Gordon (16:36.492)
There is already, there really is, and we have to remember that SHRM is a political organization, right? They have half a million HR members. They are making millions of dollars. So their choice, you have to remember also that Johnny Taylor went to the White House when Trump was in office, right? And sat and talked with this man. So, you know, and many of us Black folk will say, not all skin folk
Chad (16:41.208)
Yes, yes.
Stacey Gordon (17:06.732)
What is it? Not all skin folk or kin folk, right? So yes, we might have a black man who is the head of this organization, but he understands his role, right? And we want to talk about DEI hires, right? I'm not saying he's a DEI hire, but I am saying that when we put people in certain situations, he is in a very tough spot, right? As a black man, as the head of this HR organization that now is, you know, before Kamala became, or...
became the nominee, we were in situation where we were looking at a Trump presidency that was happening. So I think what they were doing was hedging their bets. Because again, SHRM is a political organization. So now we can see, are they going to walk that back a little bit? I don't know. But I don't look at that organization as one that we should be following when it comes to DEI. Now follow them when it comes to HR, specifically compliance and things like that, absolutely. But when it comes to DEI,
Joel (17:42.781)
Mm -hmm.
Stacey Gordon (18:04.546)
I had a conversation with Johnny Taylor back in 2020 or 2021, and we had this specific conversation. And he said in that conversation that they are not a DEI organization. You were not. So stop speaking on it. It's really what they need to do.
Chad (18:16.802)
Gotcha. So, Professor Scott Galloway, who is he's out in the media all over the place, but he's also on a couple of podcasts. He's actually talked about, you know, we always talk about broadening the tent and getting more people under the tent, which, you know, obviously means that, you know, they not just the Democratic tent, but just the tent of our ideology. And his whole focus is around being able to.
attract more white people instead of just brown people and black people under the DEI tent. And he believes that we should be talking more about socioeconomics because that ties us together. And that is that has goes beyond race. And to be able to say that there are privileged individuals that are out there that are white and black. And we all understand that obviously most of us
grew up with a certain amount of privilege, is there a better way for us to actually message this, to get more people under the tent so that we can get more movement to equity?
Stacey Gordon (19:25.484)
I think we have to recognize that. when people say DEI, or I guess when people hear DEI, what they hear is black people, gay people, and women, right? That's what they hear. It's like, have you ever seen these TikToks where like parents are like, I said this and this is what my kids heard? It's very much that. And I think that people are speaking from a place of ignorance. So.
Joel (19:40.167)
Hmm.
Chad (19:44.768)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stacey Gordon (19:53.334)
When we say DEI, we're not just talking Black people. We're not just talking women. We're not just talking gay people, right? There's a whole spectrum of things out there, which includes socioeconomic status. It includes religion. It includes geographies. It includes the differences in language barriers or just even languages from different regions, right?
Chad (20:05.294)
Mm
Stacey Gordon (20:17.73)
Same reason that people in England speak English and people in the United States speak English and half the time we can't understand each other. So understanding that DEI encompasses all of the identities that we hold. We hold many, many different identities. And when we hone in on one, it's like saying we want to cure cancer, absolutely. But in order for us to cure cancer, we have to cure breast cancer, testicular cancer.
Lung cancer, right? Skin cancer. In order for us to do that, we're gonna have to get people who are specialists in skin cancer, right? You can't take your lung cancer's person and ask them to cure skin cancer. It's not gonna happen. And so when we fix things, when we go into an organization and say, you have a pay equity issue here for women, and we need to fix it, we don't just fix it for women. We don't say,
Chad (20:54.658)
Mm
Joel (21:01.575)
Mm
Stacey Gordon (21:12.92)
you know, some of the men, you're not getting paid what you should be paid either, but this is only for women. Sorry, it doesn't affect you, right? It fixes it for everybody. When we go into an organization and we say, this place is toxic as shit and everybody is being bullied, right? We're not just fixing it for gay people or black people or people who speak a second language, right? We're fixing it for everybody because what we do forget is white men do get bullied too, right?
Chad (21:16.258)
Yeah. Right.
Chad (21:27.374)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Stacey Gordon (21:41.154)
White men do have issues. There's lots of things that no company has 100 % satisfaction. But you know.
Chad (21:47.715)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (21:49.149)
Chad bullies me all the time, just so you know, just I'm feeling very, very, very separated. by the way, by the way, the British, the British are my favorite underprivileged, class of people. shout out to the British. I'm curious. You mentioned, the political scene and, and early in Kamala entering the rate or being the nominee, calling her quote, a DEI hire was popular for about a week. And then everyone said like, that's a bad idea.
Chad (21:54.03)
I got a call from HR earlier today, yeah.
Joel (22:18.097)
people don't like that. Were you inspired by that? Or was it just like, let's just sweep it under the rug? Or was it maybe a real sort of nugget of change that were, that's out there?
Stacey Gordon (22:28.002)
I mean, I just think it's dumb. You want to say she's a DEI hire, but you know, and then we saw it's talking about black jobs. like, so it's like, she's in, she's the VP of the United States. Let's not forget she does have an actual job right now.
Joel (22:39.463)
But when, but so when, people had a gag reflex to that, to me, I would look at that as a positive. Like we heard that and said, Nope, that's not cool. do you feel the same or where am I? Am I off base with that?
Stacey Gordon (22:53.078)
I mean, I think when you say DEI hire, my gag reflex is the fact that it even comes out of your mouth in the first place, right? Why are we even thinking that? for, because when you say DEI hire, again, you are making the assumption that this person was only hired because they're black. And it's the same as, know, again, we've had women who get put into roles and then people will say, well, she only got hired because she's a woman. Like really? So we went out and hired her strictly because she has a vagina.
Joel (23:00.626)
Yeah.
Stacey Gordon (23:22.878)
I'm sure that's what we're doing right now. Like it's so insulting to say that a person is in a role only because of one aspect of their identity. So they didn't apply to the job. They had no skills whatsoever. right? Like it's just dumb AF.
Chad (23:39.246)
But it's part of the power structure though, right? It is part of the power structure.
Stacey Gordon (23:43.234)
It's a way to insult somebody and demean them and belittle their credentials.
Chad (23:45.304)
Yes.
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (23:48.677)
Yeah. And it didn't work this time. So anyway, my perspective is that was interesting that it was, it was snuffed out pretty quickly. Let's move on to something that's, that's been in our zeitgeist for a while and it's skills -based hiring. And I don't think that we typically look at skills -based hiring as a, inclusive issue. I think we look at it as, okay, we need people. we can't just hire from.
where they went to school, we have to hire people and then train them within the job. But as we're talking, I feel like there's a diversity angle and a benefit to skills -based hiring that maybe we're not talking about. What are your thoughts?
Stacey Gordon (24:27.692)
There absolutely is. And it's funny because, well, it's not funny. It's a fact. I actually have a course on LinkedIn called Skills First Recruiting with a DEI mindset. And the whole idea behind that is that skills -based recruiting is DEI. And this is why I say DEI is so misunderstood because we put it in a box of it's only this thing over here. And it's like, no, what DEI is, is being open.
and realizing that people can be hired for their skills, right? And that certain people do have skills. So for example, we will say, and I worked as a recruiter for many years, and I tell you if I had a nickel for every time somebody said this to me, I'd be a rich woman. You know, we can't find a qualified black engineer. We can't find a qualified woman scientist or whatever, right? And every time I was like, call BS on that. Because as a recruiter, if you tell me what the rec is,
I can go find somebody who is going to fit that bill. I will find you women. I will find you people of color. And not to say that that's all we have to find. So when we look at skills -based recruiting, what actually has to happen is there has to be, for the hiring manager, the person that's doing the hiring, they have to know what they want in a, what it's gonna take for someone to be successful in that role. The problem with skills -based hiring is most hiring managers have no idea what it's going to take.
And so they fall back on old job wrecks. They go back and go, well, this person did the job and they had these skills or they had these pedigrees. So we'll just hire a carbon copy of them. Not really taking the time to understand what it takes for a person to be hired in that roles. And if you don't see somebody, a black person as skilled, doesn't matter how many skills. Let's look at Miss Harris as an example, right? She is credentialed up the wazoo.
But if you don't see her as somebody that is capable, doesn't matter how many skills she has, you are never going to hire her. So it's not her that has the issue, it's you as the hiring manager that is uneducated and ignorant, right? And biased. So that's where the learning has to happen. That's where the education has to happen is with the hiring managers. And it's about a mindset shift. It's not about skills. It's not about recruiting process.
Stacey Gordon (26:52.192)
It's not about any of that. It is really about shifting mindsets.
Chad (26:56.302)
And that's not easy, especially when a lot of these people, that's how they were born and bred. mean, my great uncle was born and raised in Mississippi and his whole thought processes were much different than mine who were, I was 40 years younger for goodness sakes, right? So, that's something, it's almost like we're waiting for these types of individuals to die out so that we can have kind of like, again, we're waiting for the boomers to get the hell out of the workforce for goodness sakes, but
Is that what we have to do? Are we just waiting for this to get bred out of our system as we become more of a multicultural society in the United States as, you know, white dudes like me become the minority, right? Is that what has to happen for this to actually gain the traction that's necessary to achieve diversity, equity and inclusion?
Stacey Gordon (27:50.358)
Well, you I would hope not, right? And I think that's where, I know, but I think that's where the DEI education does come into play. And I think the reason, one of the reasons, because like you said, there's some people, it's just a mindset issue where they've just always done things a certain way. Nobody likes change. So when somebody comes in and says, well, actually, we're gonna do things a little bit differently. Nobody wants to have to do that, right? But part of it is also the way in which we have gone about education.
Chad (27:52.654)
That's kind of where we're headed though.
Chad (27:58.263)
huh.
Chad (28:10.03)
Mm
Stacey Gordon (28:20.386)
You know, we have done these online courses. And yes, I'm, you know, I've done them as well. I have lots of them out there. But the thing is we've done online courses. We've done these one hour, two hour trainings and we do them once a year. And then we go, okay, that was good. Everyone checked the box. Everyone did the little five question quiz. All right, we all know what D, E and I stands for. Wonderful. See you next year. Go back to work.
It's not integrated into anything that you're actually doing. So if we want change, what has to happen is we have to help people do it. You can't just give somebody a little, PDF and say, read this and then go implement. You actually have to walk people through how to do it, right? It's the reason people go to the gym. We know how to exercise. We know what an exercise looks like.
Nobody actually wants to do that without having a trainer say, stand here and do this exercise. And I want to see five of them. And then I want to see 10 and then I want, right. And you've got to have that. So we have to do the same thing for professional development and not just for DEI, but in general, when you think about the reason that sales training works for people, right? Why does sales training work? Because you do it.
You get the training and then what do you do? You immediately go and you implement it into your day job as a salesperson. That's why it works.
Chad (29:45.102)
Well, there are KPIs around that too. And that is at that point when we start putting KPIs around diversity hiring or what have you, that's where the alarm bells go off. That's where people start losing their shit.
Stacey Gordon (30:00.258)
Right, well, because then there's also this idea that work is like pie, right? And so there's only so much of it to go around. And if we start giving it to people who haven't had it before, then it takes away from me. And we all know that's not true either. We're also in a place too, we got to remember with AI, technology, all these things that change, we have so many jobs today that we didn't have 20 years ago. We're going to have more jobs 20 years from now that we can't even fathom today.
We gotta remember stuff is always changing. And if as a leader, like anyone who is listening that is an actual leader in their organization, is like, if you are not changing, if you are not leading people through change, then you are stagnant. If you were stagnant, you are falling behind and you are not doing your job properly. I always look at that one like that's rage then.
Joel (30:47.249)
You lost me at exercise, Stacy. And then you drew me right back in when you started talking about pie. That is Stacy Gordon, everybody. Stacy, our listeners who want to connect with you or learn more, where would you send them?
Chad (30:49.975)
haha
Chad (30:53.614)
She's good. She's good.
Stacey Gordon (31:03.744)
You can find me on LinkedIn, really easy to find. I'm LinkedIn slash Stacey Gordon, slash in slash Stacey Gordon. And my website is rework work. And that is rework work for a reason because everything needs to be changed about the way that we work.
Joel (31:20.413)
Let me make sure I get this right before I let you go. It's it's unconscious acceptance. Is that right? Inclusion blew my mind.
Stacey Gordon (31:26.538)
unconscious inclusion. can actually go to unconsciousinclusion .com and learn more about it.
Chad (31:27.566)
There you go.
Joel (31:33.039)
I love it. love it. Chad, I feel so much smarter and I need some pie right about now. We out!
Chad (31:37.198)
We out!
Comments