TikTok Shutdown, Big Meta Energy and LinkedIn AI?
- Chad Sowash
- Jan 17
- 41 min read
In this jam-packed episode, Chad and Cheese dissect the hottest topics shaping the world of work. From the end of resumes as we know them to the uphill battle for MBA grads, they dive into how AI is redefining job hunting. Plus, they break down the strategic moves behind Shaker’s acquisition of Jobadx and DHI Group’s restructuring shake-up.
And it doesn’t stop there: Mark Zuckerberg’s latest Meta drama, the ripple effects of a potential TikTok shutdown, and what it all means for job seekers, creators, and the workforce of tomorrow. Don’t miss this candid conversation packed with insights, shout-outs, and hard-hitting truths about the future of work. 🌟
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:32.116)
clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel, MAGA makeover cheeseman.
Chad (00:41.523)
This is Chad, video killed the resume star, so watch.
J.T. O'Donnell (00:45.794)
And I'm JT, what the heck did I get myself into, O'Donnell?
Chad (00:49.247)
That's a question. That's a good question.
Joel (00:50.228)
On this episode on this episode shaker ring things up Zuck gets intense and is twit talk in our future. Let's do this
J.T. O'Donnell (00:51.118)
you
Chad (00:59.007)
Hello?
Joel (01:03.838)
JT in the house. Doodle. You little devil. You little devil. Showing me, look, showing me.
Chad (01:04.319)
Uhhhh
Chad (01:10.547)
Ha
Joel (01:15.012)
He's showing me the beer. It's happy hour in Portugal. Freezing my tootsies off in central Indiana. Love it, love it, love it. JT, welcome. Welcome to the show, welcome to the show. Welcome back. Guess who's back, back again. Yeah.
Chad (01:15.271)
J.T. O'Donnell (01:19.074)
He's hydrating. He's hydrating.
Chad (01:23.635)
Ooh.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:27.032)
Same.
Chad (01:29.161)
Welcome back.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:30.232)
Thank you guys. It's good to be here. Happy 2025. Hey everyone.
Chad (01:33.791)
I'm saying, real quick though, I gotta say your 2025 death of the resume, video takes the lead on LinkedIn, everybody has a hot take, which I think it's awesome, right? Because the resume has been dying for years, but we've seen tech really gain some momentum and speed. yeah, but everybody has a hot take on that. So good prediction for 2025, love it.
Joel (01:39.559)
It's hot.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:48.536)
forever.
Joel (01:59.144)
Money prediction, money prediction. it. Love the t-shirt as well.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:59.95)
Thank you.
Chad (02:02.163)
Money!
Chad (02:05.971)
Well, this one's for Joel though. Joel, I have it on good authority that you've already pre-ordered something and I'd like you to roll that beautiful bean footage so that you can show everybody.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:08.396)
Thank
Joel (02:19.764)
It took me a second to know what you're talking about. All right, let's go to what Chad's little joke is here.
Chad (02:22.013)
you know what I'm talking about.
Chad (02:28.435)
Highly realistic.
She looks high. That's what you said.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:34.254)
exactly what I thought, 100 % what I saw, I was like.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:44.651)
The face is gonna drive me nuts. I just would be annoyed looking at somebody that has that look, that face.
Joel (02:50.708)
That's how my wife looks at me. I don't know if there's any connection.
Chad (02:51.005)
That face. Which is why Joel's already pre-ordered for.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:52.974)
No. Warning.
Joel (03:01.168)
I've ordered, I've pre-ordered for, for Fembots and you get a, you get an annual subscription to Bluetooth. so I'm set, man. I'm set. My 25 is going to be lit everybody.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:06.039)
Ugh.
Mm-mm.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:14.561)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:18.296)
I don't know. The whole thing is disturbing. It's disturbing to watch. It's really disturbing. Yep.
Chad (03:19.025)
Okay. Yeah. Cut it. Cut it. Cut it. Cut it. Cut it. If you're not watching on YouTube, you just missed the animatronic little blonde that looks like she's high and apparently in need of some Bluetooth.
Joel (03:20.18)
You
Joel (03:37.636)
So JT, you're not threatened by the Fembots yet? You're not thinking they're going to take your job?
J.T. O'Donnell (03:41.9)
No, not really worried about. I'm serious, it was annoying to watch. I don't think I could stand in front of a bot that goes, you know, back and forth like that. That was weird.
Chad (03:51.103)
It's weird.
Joel (03:52.212)
But now we all remember the seventies. I mean, we've gone from blow up, you know, dolls to this. I'd call that progress if nothing else. you know, another 50 years, I don't know. think our species.
Chad (03:59.507)
Yes.
I'd call that progress.
J.T. O'Donnell (04:06.328)
Where was the guy version? Why is it a lady? Can I just ask like, why is it a gal? Where's the guy?
Chad (04:09.289)
Yeah.
Joel (04:10.696)
The guy version sits there and listens to you and says, uh-huh, yeah, that's frustrating.
Chad (04:15.967)
And all you really need for that is an app.
J.T. O'Donnell (04:20.12)
while flexing, just promise me he's flexing when he's doing it, right? Like, eh, that's it, okay, well then when I see that, I might change my mind.
Chad (04:23.731)
The entire time. Yes, yes.
Joel (04:23.826)
Yeah, yeah, the eight.
Chad (04:29.752)
He's still gonna look like he's high, just so you know, because I mean, think that's actually one of the things that sells the animatronic robot.
Joel (04:33.544)
Much again, again, like the seventies, it's going to be a hundred, like girly mags to like the one play girl that's for women. There's going to be a thousand fem bots for the one, like male, male bots.
J.T. O'Donnell (04:33.717)
Hmm.
Chad (04:45.852)
What Joel's trying to say is there's not much of a market for the male versions. Let's just say that.
Joel (04:50.644)
What I'm saying is, is we are dead as a species. We are screwed. As soon as this thing is lifelike, we're screwed. We're dead. Remember the bill Burr caught, you know, like, there's no way this game can get any better. wait. Yes it can. Sorry. Jeez. This is going south quickly. So let's, let's get to some shout outs. JT, what you got?
Chad (05:00.521)
Yeah? Yeah?
Chad (05:08.485)
Anyway, shout outs, shout outs, there we go.
J.T. O'Donnell (05:13.486)
I get to this week, so I'll start with my first one and it's to Jerry Crispin. When you did the interview, it warmed my heart. He's an OG. He nerds out on his craft. He has no problem telling everybody that he's been in it 50 years and he's still so freaking curious about our industry, has a complete growth mindset about our industry. And I don't know, I just love the way he talks about it. It was a joy to hear. was walking the dog, cheering him on and it just, Jerry, I'm a fan.
Chad (05:17.501)
Yay!
Joel (05:22.036)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (05:22.089)
Yes. Yes.
Chad (05:36.318)
Yes.
J.T. O'Donnell (05:42.936)
That was awesome.
Chad (05:43.785)
Curiosity is his superpower, no question, no question.
J.T. O'Donnell (05:45.944)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel (05:46.558)
Yeah, and behind the scenes, he still emailed us this week saying, I'd really love to hear your guys' thoughts on X, right? Not the company X, but just a subject, whatever subject. So yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (05:54.188)
Yeah, see,
Chad (05:56.989)
Yeah, things lined up. He's like, you guys should talk about this this year. I mean, it's so great because he's not just a part of the discussion. He is pushing the discussion. I love it. Still, still.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:00.898)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:06.382)
Exactly. Yeah.
Joel (06:07.602)
Yeah. Literally 20 years ago, was a much younger entrepreneur launching stuff in this space. And I knew about Jerry in the nineties when he was writing career crossroads. And he literally called me to say I was, he liked what I was doing. And it was literally like God had called me from down, from above. Like, really? You're Jerry, you're calling me. Like it was awesome. So yeah.
Chad (06:19.495)
huh.
Chad (06:30.207)
Joel, this is Jerry.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:31.512)
Thank
Joel (06:33.556)
He does have a God type thing going. of windstreaks, my shout out goes out to Doug Berg. Industry people will know Doug. He's the man behind Techies, Jobs to Web, Webclip Drop, which eventually became Zap Info acquired by Indeed. By the way, our first ever sponsor was Webclip Drop. So we have Doug to thank for this show. Anyway, he's...
Chad (06:35.635)
He does. That's great. That's great.
Chad (06:43.475)
Dougie. Fresh.
Chad (06:56.521)
Yeah.
Doug and Peter,
Joel (07:02.164)
He's now chairman head of whatever company called Match2. It's a little bit of a mystery, but looks like you're embedding matching stuff into your ATS or your HCM solution. So I'm certainly going to be on the watch for Match2 and what they're doing. Who's involved with this and who's helping, Doug? Well, a few names like Elaine Orler, Jason Costello, and Chris Forman to name a few. I mentioned Techies, and I was curious because
Chad (07:18.077)
Mmm, love it
Chad (07:24.585)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (07:32.052)
Chad and I are around in the 90s anyway, and this was a, this is an old Techies commercial from the 90s, Chad. You'll enjoy this. Check, check this out.
Chad (07:38.155)
shit.
Chad (08:07.327)
you
Joel (08:10.206)
blast from the past. How hard do think it was to find a woman to be in that commercial? And do you think she was actually a techie? We need a woman. We need a woman back in the nineties. Not a lot of women. What you got, Chad?
Chad (08:10.64)
They don't know what I do.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:11.661)
Ahem.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:15.607)
my god!
Chad (08:18.687)
Back in the 90s. Definitely back in the 90s. Yeah, so friend of the show, big shout out to ex EEOC commissioner, Keith Sonderling. The guy deserves a velvet jacket by now. He's been on the show so much. Shout out number one for baby number two, which actually arrived during the holidays. Congrats, Papa. Congrats, Papa Keith. And number two for then gaining the nomination for
Joel (08:38.548)
Mmm.
Chad (08:48.051)
Deputy Secretary of Labor. So if confirmed as Deputy Secretary, Labor Secretary, Keith would be tasked with overseeing the DOL's nearly 15,000 employees and the agency's day-to-day operations. It's a good thing to know that we actually have somebody, possibly with some sanity, that's going to be on the hill for the next administration. So we can watch the circus and hopefully have a great ringmaster to watch as well.
Joel (09:17.8)
Do you think his association with us will have any bearing on how he does with the Senate?
Chad (09:22.719)
it's one of the reasons why I got in. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
Joel (09:28.372)
Good, good, good stuff. All right, JT, your final shout out for us.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:34.617)
So my final one is for Harvard MBA students. Yeah, so the study just came out that almost one in four of them can't find a job. That's the highest it's been in 10 years. Harvard's MBA program is the number one out of 98 schools ranked. 2022, to give you an idea, 10 % of those students weren't finding jobs. It's now up to 23 % in climbing.
Chad (09:47.359)
Wow. Mm-hmm.
Joel (09:52.468)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:59.625)
Whoo!
J.T. O'Donnell (10:00.578)
Just want to give people an idea. If you think the job market's bad, I know, I really want you to feel sorry for those MBA students, those Harvard MBAs. It's a job economy problem. the reality is that these people paid a lot of money for that degree, for that advanced degree. We talk about ROI, you're getting an MBA, return on investment. I don't think they're seeing it for the kind of money they're paying. And one in four are not going to get a job. The article goes on to say that,
Joel (10:07.718)
Is this a Harvard problem or a job economy problem or both? Okay.
Chad (10:18.899)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (10:26.515)
as well.
J.T. O'Donnell (10:30.392)
They're all taking lower paying jobs that they could have got without MBAs in order to get into the workforce.
Chad (10:33.609)
So it's really interesting because my daughter just moved from Budapest to Brighton so she could get her MBA. She's the youngest one in the class because in Europe, they want you to have experience before you go into the school. Now in the US, what do we do? It's a cash game, right? It's a cash grab. So all we do is we push these kids. like, undergrad, that's great. Now it's time to go get that MBA.
It's all bullshit, right? And all the reason why we're turning these kids out with no experience and great education is all down to money. And unfortunately, it has nothing to do with their money and their ability to actually go and get into a six figure job right out of the gate, which they should be able to. But guess what? As Americans, we're focused on getting as much cash as we can out of the consumer as opposed to doing the right thing.
And shout out to Kennedy who is the youngest in her MBA class in Brighton. So yeah.
Joel (11:35.302)
As someone with a kid entering college, I appreciate the commentary on that.
Chad (11:40.261)
So the thing that these young adults can do though is they can sign up for free stuff. They can go to ChadCheese.com slash free. What can you win? Look at that t-shirt that JT has on. Gorgeous, form-fitting. Yeah, it's like a hug from Chad and Cheese. That is provided by our friends over at Erin App. It's beautiful, feels good, gonna love it. Bourbon barrel.
Joel (11:46.603)
yes.
Joel (11:54.002)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (12:04.884)
Feels good.
Chad (12:06.647)
aged syrup from our boys up north from key yora that's right key yora bourbon bay i mean if you're have belgian waffles you're gonna have bourbon barrel aged syrup beer craft beer from aspen tech labs that's right lands on your front door along with possibly two bottles of whiskey two bottles of high class whiskey from van hacke and if it is your boat day then you could win some rum with
Joel (12:08.358)
you
Joel (12:22.002)
Hmm.
Chad (12:36.223)
Plum. Go to ChadCheese.com slash free. Register to win.
Mm-hmm.
Joel (12:43.782)
That's right, Chad. Another trip around the sun for listeners, Jill Patterson, Tom Bertels, Paul Drake, Chris Gross Jean, Chanel Nelson, Jenny Olson, Michael O'Dell, G.J. Vosdorp, Joanne Lockwood, Rita Dushi, Roy Shoemaker, and Chris the Love Muscle Russell. All celebrating another trip around the sun.
J.T. O'Donnell (12:44.118)
Sounds good.
Chad (12:49.427)
Whoo!
Chad (12:55.048)
you
J.T. O'Donnell (12:59.114)
Mmm.
Chad (13:02.493)
Wow.
J.T. O'Donnell (13:09.496)
He's gonna kill you for that. Yeah, sorry Chris. Yeah.
Chad (13:10.899)
Which, no, he loves it. Everybody else is like, no, don't think. His wife's like, stop it, stop it. Yes, almost.
Joel (13:13.682)
He loves it.
Joel (13:17.812)
He loves it almost as much as Chad likes traveling. Almost, almost. Where are you going to be this month, Chad? And where are we going soon?
Chad (13:27.623)
Well, in early February, just a couple of weeks down the road, I am headed to Madrid. It's a Smart Recruiters, wait a minute, yep, Smart Recruiters, all hands events. There's gonna be a simulcast that we have, a gala, and whatever the hell else they wanna throw at me. So we're gonna have a good time in Madrid, coming back to the United States under protest, but I'm coming back. Transform is happening, that's right kids,
The win in Las Vegas, March 17th through the 19th. Can't wait to get there. If you've never been to Transform, you got to check out Transform. It's a different feel. Yes, it's in Vegas. We always go to Vegas. There are a bunch of conferences in Vegas, but the win and Transform kind of put a spin on it. So really dig that. What do you think, Joel?
Joel (14:10.676)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (14:20.222)
about Transform. I dig the win. I dig Vegas. It's our first trip of the year. So we're kind of itching to get back out. Maybe not you because you're trekking Europe, but it's nice for me to get out of the cold, go to Vegas. Great people. We had a blast last year on stage with some great companies, talk and shop. We're looking hopefully to do some cool events, little cool extracurricular activities. Probably more on that later. But yeah, I'm
I'm a fan. We are choosing quality over quantity a little bit more this year. And this is a quality conference for sure.
Chad (14:57.801)
What about you, JT? Have you been to this one yet?
J.T. O'Donnell (15:00.142)
not been, but I think I want go to Vegas for St. Patrick's Day. Well, I mean, did they plan that one right or what? You know, I don't know. Can I tag on last minute? I think I'm in. That sounds fun.
Chad (15:05.439)
Doesn't suck, doesn't suck, yeah.
Joel (15:07.331)
You
Uh-huh. What's your...
Chad (15:13.321)
I know some people who can get you passes, I think.
Joel (15:17.054)
to the show. Yeah, not the Michael Jackson musical. Or maybe the Carrot Top Show. We can get you into that. We might know a few people to get you into that. yeah, maybe we'll see everyone in Vegas. Who knows?
Chad (15:18.321)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (15:21.163)
Ha
Chad (15:21.833)
Well, maybe. Who knows?
J.T. O'Donnell (15:26.469)
You
Chad (15:32.539)
Topics!
Joel (15:35.78)
All right, this is becoming a habit. got some to talk about. DHI Group is restructuring separating dice and clearance jobs and cutting its workforce by 8 % with $2.2 million in severance costs. But wait, there's more. Paul Farnsworth will now lead Dice while Alex Schilt heads Clearance Jobs. The move aims to...
Chad (15:40.148)
Layoffs?
J.T. O'Donnell (15:40.334)
Hmm.
Joel (16:01.812)
Save four to $6 million annually and that'll all come together by February of this year. Wall Street got a bit of a boner on the news. The stock is up roughly 25 % in the last month. Chad, your thoughts on the restructuring, the right sizing going on at Dice and Clearance jobs.
Chad (16:22.313)
I love how you talk about the stock being up 25%. What's the current share price, Joel?
Joel (16:27.572)
It's like 183 or something. Yeah, it's 233. 175, yeah.
Chad (16:28.735)
It's $2.33, $2.33. yeah, pretty much a junk stock. Anyway, anyway, DHI Group stock price currently at $2.33 a share. You gotta love hearing about failing CEOs getting a free pass while cutting heads of the hardworking employees. DICE has been the proverbial anchor around clearance jobs and DHI's neck for years.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:40.238)
Thank
Joel (16:40.743)
It's not Nvidia, for sure.
Chad (16:57.607)
Art the Dart Zeal failed to run both companies under one umbrella. So instead of axing art, they're restructuring? That's kind of odd. Seems like a friendly board playing into a, I don't know, diversionary tactic for an inept CEO to keep his job while others lose theirs. Plus, Paul, poor guy, will be the one with his head on the chopping block.
J.T. O'Donnell (17:06.094)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (17:23.891)
while Alex becomes the president of obviously a very thriving clearance job. So Dice's failing leadership and inability to move with the market has put them in this current position. Art's fault, guy still has a job. He's got other people to blame underneath him now. This is classic. This is very classic. All you CEOs out there, watch what Art the Dart is doing because this is classic distractionary.
Joel (17:51.924)
And watch ZipRecruiter follow suit in a few months for sure. If there's one thing Art does well, it's financial engineering. He did this a few years ago. The stock popped. It has since gone down. And this is his next move to re-engineer the company to get the stock price back up and going.
Chad (17:54.695)
Ian yeah
Chad (18:02.363)
and running.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:09.326)
Hmm.
Joel (18:12.232)
This is his, this is what he does. He doesn't innovate. doesn't create new products that people like. He doesn't do anything but re-engineer the company. It reminds me a little bit of remember when Sal was, was writing, riding the head chair at monster. They stopped innovating. They stopped doing anything that was interesting or exciting. It was all about the stock price. How do we re-engineer everything? And we're, it's just, yeah, it's just blueprint material for how to get your, your stock price up. when the company's really got nowhere to go and bad leadership.
Chad (18:25.513)
Monster, yep.
Chad (18:32.562)
spend that money.
Chad (18:41.855)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:42.926)
Yeah, I mean, it's in the playbook, right? It's in the boardroom playbook. It's written in the boardroom playbook that in order to make shareholders happy, all we got to do is restructure and cut staff. mean, literally every time a company does these types of layoffs, their stock price goes up. It's in the boardroom playbook. So they're just flipping to that page and going, I guess we need to institute this now. As the voice of the job seeker, it's sickening. I ditto everything you just said, Chad. It's frustrating to watch.
Joel (18:59.476)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (19:00.095)
Yeah
J.T. O'Donnell (19:11.126)
It's big bad business, you know, and I hope that more and job seekers get angry. We're seeing it on my side and I'm here for it. And I think hopefully the next generation is going to shy away from working for some of these companies that pull those tactics. Let's hope.
Joel (19:27.412)
All of those Harvard grads that you mentioned all know this strategy, by the way. So they don't need to hire them to do them. All right, let's get to some real news going down in our industry. Shaker Recruitment Marketing, good friend of the show, also from Chicago, has acquired Canada's Jobadx, another friend of the show. They're a programmatic job advertising service. Financial details not disclosed.
J.T. O'Donnell (19:31.894)
They do. Yeah, it's in the book.
Chad (19:44.595)
Mmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (19:45.709)
Mm.
Joel (19:53.62)
Side note, this may be the first acquisition involving two of our sponsors. We have a great track record of sponsors getting acquired or acquiring. This may be the first time, Chad, correct me if I'm wrong, the first time that two previous former sponsors have gotten together and gotten married. What are your thoughts on this marriage?
Chad (20:00.969)
We do!
Chad (20:11.721)
Yeah, depends. think because iSims has been, they've sponsored before and then they bought Candidate ID. It wasn't kind of like the same thing, but we do have a great track record. Great on pointing that out. Very solid with regard to sponsors. Getting money, exiting, &A, all that fun stuff. Anyways, anyways, Why buy job at X? Simple. Recruitix buys KRT, Raiden C buys Perango, and then AppCast buys Bayard.
This move by Joe and the Shaker team only makes sense. Your provider becomes a rival. So do you continue filling your rival's pockets with cash? No. You buy a platform, get rid of the middleman who's taking a cut and provide the same service for a much lower cost and the ability to sleep at night now that Shaker is out from underneath the thumb of Avcast. So if you think about it,
The market is splintering. We talked about it last week on the 2025 prediction, which is good for prices because those splinters are competitors and competition brings prices down. Plus, since the new service is wholly owned underneath Shaker, they can control pricing while focusing on helping companies with their hiring experience, their actual tech stacks, their CRMs instead of...
building new platforms and spending money and then trying to keep that legacy tech going for CPH, CPC, CPQC. Those types of products, mean, Shakers is not interested in. So for me, it's smart and it was a must do. Now flipping the script just a little bit, when we talked to Chris Foreman about buying Bayard and pissing off partners like Shaker, we talked to him a couple of weeks before this actually happened.
Joel (21:52.692)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (22:01.949)
He said, quote, we endeavor not to piss off anyone, end quote. Well, Chris, you can check some people hard into the boards. That's a hockey reference that he used, by the way. You can check some people hard into the boards, but don't expect them not to get pissed off about it. This was a smart move. It's a great move for the markets. to be quite frank, I think...
This could prospectively send AppCast into a tailspin, especially if more start leaving AppCast.
Joel (22:33.62)
Hmm. Yeah. Joe shakers not falling for the banana in the tailpipe on this one. And you know, Chad, I want to say that we interviewed him shortly after app cast, uh, acquired Bayard and he gave sort of the yearbook answer. You know, we do what's best for our clients, but, you and I, as we know Joe, he was internally talking about, okay, what's our plan B if they pull the rug, if prices go up, like if
J.T. O'Donnell (22:35.49)
Hmm, interesting.
Chad (22:39.613)
Not in this one.
Chad (22:59.443)
Gotta have it.
Joel (23:01.3)
Like they have, if they have control, what do we do? Frankly, there aren't a lot of programmatic solutions left. Uh, job edX is one of the last ones. Uh, one of the last ones that they could buy. So I, I imagine that this is, this is, this was probably a year in the works talking about it, strategizing it, getting a plan B, not being beholden to app cast and Baird. And so to me, this was a, a smart strategic defensive move by Joe. can still use.
J.T. O'Donnell (23:07.095)
Ahem.
Chad (23:12.639)
Like independent, yeah.
Joel (23:29.95)
click cast or any of the other solutions. But if the rug gets pulled out from under them, they can tell clients, Hey, we have our own, we own job at X like why they're similar or better. They can use it as a complimentary service. So I, was just a brilliant strategic move. whereas an ATS can always have an, marketplace where, okay, well they got bought by someone else. Well, we have a, we have a marketplace where we have other people that provide that service. An agency can't do that.
J.T. O'Donnell (23:44.43)
Cough cough
Joel (23:56.626)
Like he doesn't have a tech with a bunch of marketplace solutions. He's got to pick and choose the ones. So he's beholden if, if, if appcast screws them. So smart strategic move where they move totally off appcast. that'll be interesting. when we talk to him, when we talk to him next, we'll ask what, the plan is there, but, smart strategic move. Not surprising. well done. Well done, Joe, as usual, as usual.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:03.693)
Ahem.
Chad (24:10.399)
slowly.
slowly.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:20.376)
Yeah. I'll just... Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:25.87)
I have to say really quick, when you sent this, that you were gonna talk about this today, I immediately went back to the past podcast where you've been talking to both sides and everything you just said, I was like, they said that, they predicted it. So hats off to you boys for knowing what was coming down the pike. Very proud of you, very proud of you.
Chad (24:39.647)
Aww. Say more. Say more. Say more.
Joel (24:40.468)
you
Joel (24:45.876)
The bigger question is what's going to happen to Programmatic in the future, think, regardless of who they own, but it was a smart move.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:48.525)
Yeah.
Chad (24:52.703)
I think it's interesting because Joe can look at this through different lens than APCAS can, because APCAS has to worry about the tactical clicks that happen all the time, right? Because that's how they make their money. And they have to worry about the other side of the house on the Bayard's side to be able to help companies become more efficient and to be able to not set it and forget it, right? So they're fighting each other because if Bayard's doing their job well, then CPC
Joel (25:06.473)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (25:22.791)
starts to dwindle, right? If Bayard starts, yeah, if Bayard starts pointing and doing searches inside the applicant tracking system for candidates you've already paid for, then AppCast starts to dwindle. Shaker doesn't have that problem. They don't have that problem, right? It's not a two-sided marketplace for them. They're all focused on one thing, and that's that enterprise client.
Joel (25:23.952)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, price to the bottom.
Joel (25:33.427)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (25:40.626)
The, yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (25:40.672)
Okay.
Joel (25:46.408)
The question to, yeah go ahead JT.
J.T. O'Donnell (25:46.626)
Raising my hand on this one. Yeah, I just, want to ask both of you this question. So we're watching all this acquisition, right? It had to happen. It forces everybody to up their game. I love watching it. But at the same time, we have this whole world of AI, new companies in stealth market, starting up left and right. And I just wonder how hard these companies are to work fighting these, you know,
the devils they know and out of the blue out of left field is going to come something agile with no technical debt that isn't big that could just blow them all out of the water. I'm going to be honest, I'm seeing tech every day. I'm sure you are too. I'm like, what? Stuff in our industry is amazing to me. And we're in the infancy of this. So I'm curious if you think this big fighting and all this isn't even going to be worth it.
Chad (26:28.905)
Yes.
Joel (26:34.916)
Ooh, the relationships matter, JT. These agencies have really good personal connections with their companies. The companies trust them and the advice that they give. Technology comes and goes very quickly. I companies generally have a risk averse opinion about new technologies. So until, until Shaker tells McDonald's, yes, this is a tech that you should use. They're usually not embracing those technologies. Now it could be different this time, but I think companies will be really cautious about all these.
J.T. O'Donnell (26:37.856)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel (27:04.626)
new companies that are popping up. Do they have staying power? Do they get investment money? They're going to be pretty cautious about it. Whereas it's the smaller companies, the small businesses that like, yeah, let's roll the dice on this new stuff and see how it goes. So that would be my opinion on how agencies and the traditional companies look at new tech.
J.T. O'Donnell (27:16.195)
Right?
Joel (27:27.038)
Chad, you're on mute.
Chad (27:29.905)
As you were, think Shaker's pretty smart from the standpoint of, doesn't want to create new products because again, that is perspective, not today, but tomorrow will be legacy, right? They work directly with those vendors who are best in breed and that's their focus. So they become the expert in the space that literally can talk about any platform as opposed to like a radency.
who's literally just gonna talk about their stuff for the most part, right? They're gonna talk about some other platforms, because they gotta throw it in there a little bit just to seem relevant and obviously, know, legit, but they're gonna sell their own shit. Joe's not really worried about that, which is really cool and refreshing, not to mention it's lightweight with regard to the tech question that you just had, because I don't have to stay up to date on the tech, because it's just distribution, that's fairly simple, but I can go out to my partners.
Joel (28:07.924)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (28:27.046)
and they need to stay up to date.
Joel (28:30.056)
What will be really interesting, Chad, and it's not really Joe's style, but what if he funds JabatX and says, release the Kraken and go straight after AppCast business and their market share as opposed to just being a defensive move? I would love to see Joe go right at AppCast, Ditka style, and see what they're made of. Take them on. Don't just be a defensive move. Be a little offensive. I'd love to see that.
Chad (28:56.105)
Well, and Chris actually said they only focus on enterprise customers at Abcast, and that is Joe's portfolio, right? So when they bought Bayard, who again, very focused on enterprise, that was a threat. So at the end of the day, beautiful move, smart move, and again, a company that's almost been around 75 years, Shaker, they're making smart moves.
Joel (29:20.244)
And congrats to the job edX folks. I know they've been working hard for a long time. Yeah, a mitten team. Good job. Good job. All right, let's go to some more news at a, actually, let's take a quick break. Let's take a quick break and we'll get back and talk about LinkedIn.
J.T. O'Donnell (29:23.372)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Chad (29:23.401)
yeah, emitting team, you guys kill it.
Chad (29:32.147)
Yeah.
Joel (29:40.66)
All right. What show is complete without LinkedIn or indeed we'll cover LinkedIn this week. LinkedIn has launched the following AI tools, something called jobs match for job seekers and an AI recruitment agent for small businesses. Both are currently free to use. These aim to simplify the job application process amidst high competition, leveraging LinkedIn's own AI and data. They're hoping this move will boost user engagement on the platform. JT, you're usually pretty opinionated.
Chad (29:44.831)
Ha
J.T. O'Donnell (29:51.928)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (30:10.31)
about job search tools. What are your thoughts on LinkedIn's latest?
J.T. O'Donnell (30:10.67)
Yeah.
So the job search tool side of it is to deter people from applying. So right now you go there and see a thousand applicants in four hours and people are, you know, that's now going to the recruiter. The recruiter is now responsible for sorting through that. It's dysfunctional. We're talking to recruiters all the time that have had it. You know, they don't even want to post jobs anymore for this reason. And so LinkedIn has to come up with a solution. And the thought is, if I can show a job seeker, don't bother. You're not a fit.
I can hopefully deter them from doing that. My issue and the thing that scares me the most is the number of AI tools that are popping up that are helping job seekers just automate their applications. mean, just last week, three different startups hit my inbox telling me, JT, we have the solution. We can apply to a hundred jobs overnight for them. I don't want that. I don't want that for recruiters. I can't believe they think that's a solution. They're clearly not from the industry. They don't understand how they're
further breaking the system. So for me, I can see why LinkedIn's doing it. And I hope to some degree that debtors people for the job seeker, the bigger concern is you tell me to apply online. You tell me that's how I have to get a job. That's my channel. And there's no other way to do this. And yet I'm up against a thousand people or you're telling me I'm not a fit for any job. Pathrise came out with a study. I think it was last month. It said you have a 0.3 % chance.
Chad (31:16.062)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:42.222)
of getting called for a job when you apply right now on any of the platforms and that it takes like 294 applications to get a job on average. What other thing do you all do with a 99.7 failure rate and how long would you stick with that? So you can see why. Yeah, well, I'm sorry. But my point being that people are just going to automate it. They're going to continue to do this. So will they even pay attention to what LinkedIn is saying? Because
Joel (31:46.024)
well.
Joel (31:56.816)
Leave my marriage out of this, JT. Leave my marriage out of this.
J.T. O'Donnell (32:11.348)
uneducated job seekers end up spraying and praying. That's what they do. And there are just too many tools telling them that's what they should do right now and they don't know any better. It's a bigger systemic issue. think LinkedIn's trying to fix it. I just don't know how well it's going to
Joel (32:31.348)
JT, I've thought about this question for you for a while, and I'm sure there's a real simple answer. Why can't LinkedIn or whoever create a CAPTCHA system that eliminates the automated stuff? Are bots just too good at detecting and getting around that? Do companies not care? Because there's an incentive for them to get applicants, right? The minute they don't get applicants and it's like, well, we suck because someone else will get more applicants. So it's kind of a lose-lose situation. Why can't they just capture this or
get something to fend off the bots.
J.T. O'Donnell (33:03.512)
So to your point, it's very sophisticated. The bots, they're able to get through. I also think there's this push and pull, right? They're making a lot of money off of recruiter seats that you spend a lot of that, right? So we want to give you enough candidates. We're obviously trying to get you the right candidates. Where I think they have done a good job is pivoted the algorithm. It's far less about your profile now. Your profile is like a resume. You could fake that all you want.
Joel (33:15.092)
clicks.
J.T. O'Donnell (33:32.046)
So let's not focus on that anymore. Let's use an algorithm and pay attention to what you're putting in your feed. How frequently are you posting in LinkedIn and how relevant is what you're posting is gonna determine that there's a far greater likelihood you are real. Other reason why they've got the clear thing up there now where they're trying to get people to verify. So I like that direction and putting it back into the job seeker to say, give the evidence that you are who you say you
Joel (33:36.648)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (33:47.592)
Okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (33:55.842)
do and you can do what you say you can do. And the reason I like it is because there's a whole lot of job seekers out there that want to switch careers, want to switch industries. And so a resume or a LinkedIn profile is useless because that's based on your past, not where you want to go in your future. So focusing on feed and engagement and participation is the future and why I predicted the death of the resume. We're going to need to get the current and immediate evidence from job seekers that they can do.
Joel (34:05.363)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (34:20.206)
what we need them to do. We already do that through the hiring process. This is why hiring processes are now four to 12 weeks long and 17 interview rounds because of the amount of evidence we want before we hire them. And so when we lock into that, I think it's gonna be huge. This is why I'm a fan of LinkedIn's video tab. Whether people like it or not, that is the new first interview and the sooner you get over that and get on and start talking about your knowledge, you're gonna have recruiters coming for you and knocking on your door again. And I think that's what every job seeker wants.
Joel (34:22.996)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (34:36.552)
Yeah.
Joel (34:48.838)
That's nice advantage for LinkedIn, because job boards don't have that algorithm to know that stuff. Chad, any thoughts on the new tools from LinkedIn?
J.T. O'Donnell (34:51.118)
100 %
That's right.
Chad (34:57.671)
Yeah, well, think thus far we already know that their algorithms are all shit anyway. So conceptually, this is wonderful. mean, yay, the skies are opening. looks nice and blue like it is here in Portugal, but that's not the case. It never has been. We know how bad LinkedIn's matching was. They suck at it when they should be amazing because the amount of data that they actually have, as JT had said also, the content, the relevance, right? So...
J.T. O'Donnell (35:02.222)
You
Joel (35:02.43)
you
Chad (35:25.021)
Enter Microsoft and OpenAI, both great options, but how do they inject this tech into a 20-year-old platform? The features LinkedIn are creating for companies on the hiring side really are on the SMB side of the house and focused there because any company worth their salt already have a platform or seeking a platform that performs these tasks inside their own ecosystem. Recruitment AI agents will be embedded
into core enterprise platforms by this time next year, easily, right? LinkedIn, once you addicted to their database of candidates and employers are starting to understand they've already attracted and paid for qualified candidates and their profiles reside in their CRMs and applicant tracking system. So agents will engage qualified candidates, ask them clarifying questions and continue to make their profiles more robust and engaged.
I think indeed has a great idea, but once again, we have not seen them execute on the most easy part of it, which is taking my data, contextualizing it, and actually matching it to shit that I care about.
Joel (36:33.96)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (36:43.316)
Yeah, I didn't until I read the story in tech crunch. had no idea the weight of, of resumes that come into companies. Uh, so the data that I saw 9,000 applications per minute. Come into LinkedIn. Of course they have about a billion users globally. So they're a little bit of a victim of their own success. We get 9,000 applicants a minute. Most of those suck. How do we limit that? How do we improve quality? Uh, this is an attempt to do that. guess time will tell whether or not.
J.T. O'Donnell (36:51.074)
Yeah, it's bad.
J.T. O'Donnell (36:55.096)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Joel (37:12.68)
They are successful. on the business side, you know, when, indeed launched, have up to five profiles on your indeed account, said, they're coming after LinkedIn. so to me, this is like, maybe there was a gentleman's agreement that we'll stay in the enterprise stuff and you guys deal with, know, the jobs, job search stuff. And now they're sort of getting more competitive. So I think this going after small businesses, whether it works or not, where they put any kind of money into marketing this.
Chad (37:25.074)
Ruh-roh.
Joel (37:41.62)
Cause selling into small businesses is really hard, but it, to me, this is a, this is a strike out against zip recruiter who has abandoned their small business brand. They've totally like left that to be taken up by somebody indeed. Indeed hasn't really embraced it, but they have a good foothold in, that market. So to me, going after small business is what LinkedIn has left to kind of conquer, particularly in the, in the Americas and out in Europe. So
Chad (37:50.138)
idiots.
Joel (38:07.518)
Good strategies both, they can execute and get it right, I don't know, but I do approve of both strategies and getting more in bed with OpenAI.
J.T. O'Donnell (38:14.668)
Mm.
Chad (38:18.121)
Good luck.
J.T. O'Donnell (38:18.872)
Mm.
Joel (38:18.908)
Yeah. Good luck. And speaking of good luck, tick tock is, is tick tock and you don't stop. color me bad, Chad color me bad. all right. I'm sure you've, you've heard the news. Tick tock is set to shut down. it's us operations on January 19th. By the time you listen to this, it may be gone. January 19th of this year impacting some 170 million Americans. Unless there is a Supreme court intervention or bite dance and.
Chad (38:21.321)
Yes. And you don't stop.
Joel (38:48.54)
divest TikTok's US operations between Trump wanting to delay from the Supreme Court to Elon rumored to be a bitter to copycats like red note gaining newfound traction. This is one hell of a drama. Chad, what are your thoughts on TikTok?
Chad (39:07.657)
So I have a history lesson, kids, and this is going to be fun. This is going to be fun for most of us. For some of you, take notes because you're going to need this. Joel, do you remember Tipper Gore? You remember Tipper Gore? Remember the Parents Music Resource Center, aka PRMs or PMRC, the group that created the infamous parental advisory explicit content stickers that were supposed to kill record sales on any album displaying the sticker? Remember what happened? I do.
J.T. O'Donnell (39:16.078)
you
Joel (39:25.224)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (39:35.358)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (39:37.307)
Albums displaying the sticker had explosive record sales. NWA and Twisted Sister could probably thank Tipper and the PMRC for all of the, a good amount of their success. Let's just say that. What does this have to do with TikTok? Well, have you tried telling one of your kids no before? I remember all three of our kids were in middle school and high school and the school administration blocked everyone on their wifi from getting on social media. Guess what the kids did?
Joel (39:41.972)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (39:42.027)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (40:04.989)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (40:07.293)
This is before, it's probably about seven years ago, before you had the Express and all the different easy VPN systems. We were all using those really clunky fucking business ones every day that sucked. Kids found free VPNs, they got around it, they were on social media at school, right? Needless to say, people will find a way to get to TikTok. This is the new Printol advisory sticker. And this is, again, nothing more than a way of saying,
Joel (40:17.662)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (40:32.919)
Ahem.
Chad (40:36.685)
you love that TikTok? we're going to take it away from you. No, you're not. We're going to find a way in.
Joel (40:42.482)
By the way, if you had Tipper Gore on your bingo card, mark that off. I think it's the first time Tipper Gore has gotten a hat tip on our show. JT, what are your thoughts on the TikTok ban?
Chad (40:45.464)
hahaha
J.T. O'Donnell (40:45.902)
Yeah.
Chad (40:49.348)
J.T. O'Donnell (40:54.06)
Yeah, I think I take it from a different perspective. don't think people understand how many people have that as a gig. TikTok is their gig. It's their side hustle that's making them full-time income. You are talking about hundreds and thousands of US solopreneurs out in the middle of nowhere making an income they could otherwise never make where they live due to TikTok shop views. And I don't think people, those individuals, aren't
business owners in the sense that they're prepared for how to replace that income and what else to do. So you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people whose revenue stream is gonna shut off. And while I'm with Chad, they'll find another route that won't be overnight. And those people bought cars and houses and apartments and built lives around having this additional income in their life. And it's going away. And I see that on the TikToks that are coming through my feet. I mean, there are people that just bawling saying,
I built this, worked so hard, I'm gonna lose everything. Now we all know, we've watched it for years. Facebook, they change algorithms on social platforms, all of a sudden you weren't making money, now you're not. But there's a massive group of people this is the first time that's happening to. And that to me, it just kind of breaks my heart. We are the country where you're supposed to have this entrepreneurial spirit and create things for yourself and hundreds of thousands of people have. And they're gonna lose it all when this goes away. And to me, it just seems wrong.
You know, I love the app. It's been great to me. I've been able to reach a whole audience that not on LinkedIn, that's on TikTok that I can coach for free people I'd never otherwise get to work with and change lives. And that's just in job search. Like in every place that tool has taught and helped and let people serve audiences. And it's out. It's going to be gone. Something else will replace it. I know I'll survive, but there's a lot of people that are going to be crushed by this financially and emotionally.
Joel (42:49.586)
And as long as we're getting sentimental, JT, I never knew that bug fights and big booty Latinas could bring so much to my life as well. You mentioned the users that'll be impacted. Let's talk about a few more people that will be impacted by this. TikTok employs 7,000 people in the United States. I think their jobs might be at risk if it goes away. 60 %...
J.T. O'Donnell (42:58.038)
Mm. Mm. Joy.
Chad (42:58.207)
Joy. Joy.
Joel (43:15.576)
of ByteDance is owned by institutional investors such as BlackRock and General Atlantic. Those are big dollars coming out of the US. Trump is talking about an executive order as soon as he takes office to save TikTok. It's questionable whether he can legally do that or not, not that it's ever stopped Trump before. Would you be shocked if Elon
Chad (43:21.769)
Hmm.
Chad (43:36.787)
Hello.
Joel (43:45.079)
acquires and it rolls it, it rolls it into X like anything can happen. I haven't been to red note yet.
J.T. O'Donnell (43:51.562)
Yeah, that's, that's, know. I mean, I've checked out Red Note and the Elon Musk stuff is all, you know, just not true. That was the big rumors going around. I do think Trump will extend it or reverse it. I do. I mean, it helped him get elected. I do feel that he will do something about
Joel (44:00.308)
I mean, we'll get...
Or maybe he makes it roll into truth social and truth social becomes tick. Like we've gotten, we got big meta energy from Mark Zuckerberg. mean, he's playing nice with Trump. this meta liking like this, this is a, this is a soap opera that's going to be really fun to watch over the next, over the next couple months for sure.
J.T. O'Donnell (44:15.278)
E?
Chad (44:25.94)
Yes.
J.T. O'Donnell (44:26.616)
Yeah, 100%, 100%. If you're pro-business, you try to figure out a way to make this work for all those small businesses. If you think, you know, in my opinion, there's just so many people out there. This is a gig, a side hustle that's helping them live their best life, you know, and so.
Joel (44:41.908)
There's so much money. I mean, know that Congress has gotten flooded with letters and emails about don't cancel TikTok. To be devil's advocate, I do think it is a propaganda machine or at least a potential propaganda machine for the communist China. I told Chad, said, it's going to take a Chinese military action to like really kill TikTok. I think it's going to be on the back burner. It's just going to slow roll.
J.T. O'Donnell (44:58.69)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (45:11.764)
It's going to be an ongoing thing until something like that happens. But yeah, it's going to be a fun soap opera to watch in 2025. And speaking of soap operas, we're going to take a quick break and talk about another great soap opera happening now in America.
J.T. O'Donnell (45:18.21)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (45:32.18)
All right, kids, let's talk about some big Zuck energy, shall we? Some coverage featuring Metta and its fearless leader, Mark Zuckerberg, this week include the following workforce reduction affecting some 3,600 employees, embracing Trump and donating $1 million to his inauguration, as well as throwing a party, ending their third party fact checking in the US, and even dissing Apple on Joe Rogan.
J.T. O'Donnell (45:35.054)
You
Joel (45:59.218)
JT, is this Zuckerberg hitting his midlife crisis a bit too early or is something else going on here?
J.T. O'Donnell (46:06.734)
mean, it definitely points to signs of that, right? Just the way you set that up, you have to think what's going on there with him. You know, it doesn't surprise me that AI is going to replace middle managers. We've been talking about this forever. I mean, if you did listen to any of the futurists over the last two years, they explained we're going to lose 70 to 85 million jobs. We're going to create 95 to 140 million jobs. The problem is there's going to be this painful time where that doesn't line up. We're in it.
Joel (46:13.575)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (46:32.894)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (46:34.158)
know, we're in it. We're going to continue to be in it in 2025. So seeing that from him didn't surprise me. Also what we talked about earlier, it's in the boardroom playbook. But the other stuff, I mean, it's wild. I don't know if it's a I've hit a phase in my life where I just don't care anymore. And I want to be who I want to be. And I'm tired of everybody telling me how to, you know, how to think how to act. mean, I don't know. It's certainly fascinating. It's very public, very public.
Joel (47:01.652)
And I didn't even bring up his visual appearance. Someone said he looks like a Chechen meth dealer, which I thought was pretty funny. He has visually changed quite a bit.
J.T. O'Donnell (47:04.693)
Right, thank you.
Chad (47:08.755)
Yes. Yeah. What a great gold chain, Mark. What a great gold chain.
J.T. O'Donnell (47:09.484)
You
J.T. O'Donnell (47:14.894)
You know, being famous, that's one of the things that we get to watch, right? You know, we watch all these childhood actors grow up and watch them go through the awkward years, you know, Britney and would we think any different that maybe he was protected all this time and now he's getting to a level and an age where, you know, he doesn't feel like he has to do that? I don't know, but we're definitely seeing something unfold.
Chad (47:34.227)
Yes.
Joel (47:35.444)
Chad, your thoughts?
Chad (47:36.799)
So it's funny because you talk about TikTok being a propaganda machine. mean, Facebook's already demonstrated it is the ultimate propaganda machine. Unfortunately, testosterone and Brazilian jiu-jitsu are making Zuck feel for the days of move fast and break things, that mantra that led Facebook into breaking society with Brexit and the 2016 election, right? They had to move past that. So what did they do?
J.T. O'Donnell (47:46.712)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (48:07.027)
Does anybody remember Cambridge Analytica? Remember? It really seems that nobody remembers how Facebook broke society. Facebook data was weaponized against its own users and disinformation propaganda campaigns. Yeah, we're talking about TikTok. Fuck you. Those propaganda campaigns would have been severely hampered by fact checkers. So fact checkers were installed and ramped up in a show of contrition, which we all knew
J.T. O'Donnell (48:09.514)
No, right? Yes.
Joel (48:09.576)
You do.
J.T. O'Donnell (48:22.798)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (48:35.559)
was just bullshit and Zuck was not feeling contrition at all. So fact checkers cost money. And of course they're never perfect. So why not follow in the steps of Trump's new VP, Elon Musk, and just do what he does. He changed Twitter into X, a Nazi porn bar. Thanks Kara Swisher for that one. And now it's time to turn Facebook into a Nazi porn bar. So this is what happens when we don't remember history. We keep
We don't keep people accountable. If Zuckerberg would have faced criminal charges, whether he was, he, they, they stuck or not, right? They would have sent a message to the burly garkey. mean, nobody likes Zuck anyway, but I think he would look really good in orange.
Joel (49:29.524)
Breathe, Chad. Breathe. Breathe.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:32.278)
What's in that beer? What is in that beer?
Chad (49:32.547)
This might have to do with me getting kicked off Facebook and then having to pay to get back on Facebook. There might be some of that there, but also Cambridge Analytica, Cambridge Analytica.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:37.195)
Yeah, yeah.
Joel (49:43.22)
I was going to, I was going to go with Euro Chad is sort of coming in and into the final month of his, uh, European stay, but yeah, Chad's Chad's fired up today. Even the church bells in the background, aren't relaxing him at all. Um, yeah, Chad's Chad's very unhappy with Facebook. Uh, I'll tell you who's happy with Facebook are shareholders. Uh, and I think at the end of the day, Zuckerberg bows down to his shareholders and Trump in office. He's making nice with Trump. He's going into the X form.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:47.086)
The... Yeah.
Joel (50:13.508)
of fact checking or peer review. I don't have as big a problem with that. Unlike Chad, I actually use X and I think that the community policing is pretty good. And I do think there is probably some bias in human beings fact checking stuff, which they said they found. I'm not as angry about that as I think a lot of the people on the left are.
Chad (50:32.479)
Are you angry about Cambridge Analytica? That's the question. Because you're skirting the entire issue. There was an issue where data was weaponized. They put fact checkers in place to be able to actually skirt that. Yes, fact checkers were not perfect. Go fucking figure. But look at the scale I have to deal with. But when it comes down to having another Cambridge Analytica on fucking steroids with AI, are you cool with that?
Joel (50:40.66)
I-
Joel (50:58.812)
Am I cool with my data being sold to companies that will market to me?
Chad (51:03.603)
We're talking about disinformation campaigns. We're not talking about fucking marketing.
Joel (51:06.682)
Okay, which has happened since the days of yellow journalism. If you're not a smart consumer of content, then that's partly on you, frankly.
Chad (51:10.717)
So it's all good. All good.
Chad (51:16.019)
talking about pretty much all of America.
Joel (51:19.538)
that doesn't have the ability to filter what's real and what isn't and check facts and other sources. I can't control all of America. I can control me. I can control me.
Chad (51:24.883)
Where have you been the last fucking 10 years?
You can't know, but we're actually talking to America, therefore, well, and Europe and so on and so forth. So to be able to say that you have no worries over it is cautionary tale for me.
Joel (51:35.859)
Right.
Joel (51:40.372)
If you don't think that everything about you is already getting molested by government and big corporations, like Facebook is a fly on the ass of the elephant that is your privacy being killed. Fixing Facebook is not gonna fix it. It's gonna take fundamental change across lot areas, which I don't have the time or the energy to worry about.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:46.158)
Right.
Chad (51:54.387)
So don't fix it. So don't fix it. Yeah, it's not a problem. Not a problem. Don't fix it. It's all good.
Joel (52:07.654)
I can worry all all about Facebook, but it's part of the problem. If you cure Facebook, you're not going to end. mean, privacy is not coming back and and all that like.
Chad (52:18.975)
How many people use Facebook? That's the thing. That's the thing. It's like it is the nexus for people to actually go get their news. And if the news is bullshit and it's disinformation, not everybody actually goes outside of Facebook to fact check. To be quite frank, most people don't go outside of Facebook to fact check.
Joel (52:19.538)
We just disagree.
Joel (52:40.264)
And that's my fault, why?
Chad (52:45.361)
Nothing like an old white man saying, is about me.
Joel (52:47.334)
I just... I don't...
Joel (52:53.448)
Mark Zuckerberg's God is money. If you're expecting corporations, better angels to show up, you're gonna wait a long time. Buyer beware has been around a lot longer than we have, and it still is pertinent today.
J.T. O'Donnell (52:54.798)
This is awkward.
J.T. O'Donnell (52:58.926)
This.
Chad (53:04.319)
I am pressing for people.
No, yeah, but acquiescing is not the fucking answer though, is it? Is acquiescing the answer? Just go ahead and lay down and let them stamp on you because...
Joel (53:16.562)
No, education objective analysis, looking at multiple sources.
Chad (53:22.171)
Again, which is exactly what I said nobody fucking does, which is why we need fact checker on these platforms. That's probably it.
Joel (53:27.252)
I do, so maybe that's why I don't worry about it so much. I can only control me, Chad.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:33.144)
Chad, how do you feel about AI fact checking in?
Chad (53:36.349)
I think it's better than no fact checking. think having some type of, some type of filter in there. And again, nothing's going to be perfect, right? Not to mention human scaling isn't going to be that easy on a platform that big. So AI fact checking and possibly kicking down some of my things that they see not right, or maybe hitting me on, on messenger saying, you know, this is what we saw or what have you. I would rather have that than just a free for all.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:38.071)
Okay, so.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:43.32)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:55.128)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (54:04.364)
I have to say, I wish there was a world where there was something outside of all these social apps that I could overlay onto it, right? So third party AI fact checking that they can't control, that I could then go, okay, put this over my Facebook, fact check for me, put this over my TikTok, put this over so that I control the fact checking. That's our issue. Because if you tell them they have to fact check themselves, this is what we have, right? We need...
the ability to utilize a third party source to filter where we're getting our information through fact checking. So whoever's out there listening, go build that. That would be amazing.
Chad (54:40.563)
FairNowGuru at FairNowAI. Build it.
Joel (54:42.516)
Snopes needs an API to plug into all these sites and give us separate. And what is truth anyway, Chad? What is truth anyway?
J.T. O'Donnell (54:47.53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (54:53.314)
I mean, and we live in the country that can, you know, build these things. So let's do it.
Joel (54:59.412)
Quickly though, this friendly debate with my son drenched friend there, the employee, the mid manager stuff, if I'm a developer, I'm scared to death. If I'm in college becoming an engineer right now, a computer engineer, I am scared to death. I don't know what you're hearing on your side, JT, but like I'm thinking pivot, I'm getting out of this profession, there's no future.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:07.702)
Yeah. 100%.
Chad (55:15.711)
grade.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:20.728)
Look.
Chad (55:20.937)
Mm.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:23.054)
I'm so tired of saying this like a broken record, but every single job should be looking at how AI is going to take a piece of your job. Every job. And people go, plumbers construct every job, whether it's going to be robots or AI. We are in an age where efficiency is coming. My question is you go wipe out all those middle developers. You go write about all middle management. This is what we're hearing now, right? Middle, middle, middle is gone. The only people you keep are the highest level.
Joel (55:50.74)
They'll die eventually.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:51.092)
So when they go, thank you. Who's replacing them? Where's the learning curve and what's gonna happen in between? Wait, so are we thinking ahead on that? Who's getting selected for that? No, because right now, let's save money and watch our stock price rise. Let's wipe people out. And that's what's happening.
Chad (55:57.575)
Not training them up. Yep. Yep.
Joel (56:08.692)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (56:10.601)
JT, we got rid of vocational schools. That was talent pipelining. We got rid of all of these things. Yes, which was talent pipelining. When companies tell you about talent pipelining and you start talking to them about, they have no fucking clue what that even means. No. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:16.31)
Apprentices.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:24.802)
Mm-mm. I agree. Nor do they care.
Joel (56:25.396)
By the way, did you see Southwest Airlines halted their internship program? We're gonna see more of that because entry-level jobs and needing those kids to fill, that's going away on a big scale too. That's gonna be a story in 2025, internships going away or reduced. Can I lighten the mood with a dad joke? Would that be possible after we're gonna, it's so fired up over here. Okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:33.413)
100%.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:39.224)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:45.558)
I agree. It is way worse.
Chad (56:49.798)
I was hoping so. What took so long?
Hahaha
Joel (56:54.74)
All right, all right. What's the difference between a tire and 365 used condoms? What's the difference between a tire and 365 used condoms?
Chad (57:10.579)
the rubber on a tire can be used over and over? I don't know.
Joel (57:17.546)
One's a good year, the other one is a great year.
J.T. O'Donnell (57:21.578)
jeez.
Chad (57:22.909)
It's an amazing year, I would say.
Joel (57:25.246)
JT, thanks for joining us. If you want to know more about Heretic, check out where. Where do you send them?
J.T. O'Donnell (57:30.648)
Please come on over to LinkedIn. I would love you to message me there. And of course, hit up work at daily.com. If you are a fan of the job seeker, all my recruiters, TA people out there, please care about the job seeker this year. Come see me. Let's talk.
Chad (57:42.835)
Work it daily.
J.T. O'Donnell (57:44.362)
Mm-hmm. We out!
Joel (57:44.596)
Go Bucks. We out.
Chad (57:46.473)
We out.