With Chad jet lagged from his trip back home from Portugal, Work It Daily's J.T. O'Donnell fills in.
The main themes include the changing expectations of job seekers, the importance of authenticity and authentication in employer branding, the impact of AI and automation on job applications, the rise of video in recruitment, the role of social media in employee activism, and the right to disconnect from work. The conversation also touches on the cooling labor market and the challenges faced by job seekers in finding suitable employment.
What's more? Joel and J.T. discuss various topics related to employment and the workforce. They touch on the impact of the economy on different age groups, the future of recruiting, the rise of remote work, and the challenges of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace. They also discuss the launch of LinkedIn's podcast aimed at Gen Z and the controversy surrounding an ageist report by Indeed.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:29.614)
Yeah, Shazam and Abba Kadabra, homes. It's the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice cheeseman.
J.T. O'Donnell (00:38.766)
And I am your guest host, JT, the Talent Whisperer, O'Donnell.
Joel (00:43.878)
this episode, Oyster Makes a Pearl, indeed hates old people, and LinkedIn proves it's as dumb as ZipRecruiter. Let's do this.
Joel (00:58.274)
JT O'Donnell is in the house. The mouth from Portsmouth. What's going on?
J.T. O'Donnell (01:04.806)
I'm never gonna live that down. How are you? can't.
Joel (01:06.71)
It's so easy. It's so easy. It's so easy. I'm doing, I'm doing well. doing well. Chad just got home back from Portugal. He's a little jet lag needs a little break. got Nashville next week. So, so he's taking a little break, giving the reins to you. And, I'm super excited to have you on the show, have a different voice. you know, just a different, different environment for me is going to be nice, but, a lot of our listeners don't know you. did an interview a while back.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:15.142)
Mm
J.T. O'Donnell (01:34.79)
Mm
Joel (01:35.458)
Give us who JT O'Donnell is and feel free to go into personal stuff and then talk about what you guys are doing at work daily.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:41.734)
Yeah, yeah. So I was in the staffing and recruiting industry by way of office specialist, Modus, Ronstadt, and Renaissance Worldwide, hopped to the other side and decided to become an advocate for the worker. Basically, I spent the last 20 years teaching job seekers the Opponous Playbook. So when I call myself the Talent Whisperer, I know what job seekers really, really, really want. And I can't wait to get into it today because...
Joel (02:02.584)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:05.806)
I think the reckoning is coming. It's the jobseeker's turn. Even in this market, I'm loving the disruption that AI is causing and just can't wait for people to realize that we have not been addressing candidate experience the way we should be. We've been building it for the employers, not for the jobseekers.
Joel (02:11.201)
huh.
Joel (02:19.191)
I mean,
You mean they don't just want money. I always thought I was just give me cash and leave me alone. so you, you have a really interesting perspective. Chad and I obviously keep her on the industry and the vendor side and everything, but you, have your finger on the pulse of the job seeker. Give me sort of your current state of the job seeker. Like what technologies have you interested? What, what, what are they talking about? Give us a sense of what's going on on the job seeker side of things.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:23.91)
Yeah, right. No, unfortunately not. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:41.691)
Mm
J.T. O'Donnell (02:50.306)
Yeah, so I think the biggest thing we need to understand is that the job seeker now, thanks to TikTok, the TikTokification of all things, actually believes they're going to discover their next job. They really believe that that's going to come into their path, that they don't have to go and proactively seek it, and that it's going to be organizations that fit the things that they're looking for. And they've got a long list, longer than we've ever seen before. So that's the first thing I think employers need to understand. Secondly,
The hot topic is not authenticity, which I hear so many companies trying to focus on with their employer brand, their EVPs. It is authentication. Job seekers want to know that you are who you say you are. They have been burned one too many times from recruiting tactics and candidate experience tactics that have made them feel stupid and they were very distrustful and they need authentication that you are who you say you are, that the job is real.
Joel (03:25.165)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (03:39.555)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:45.956)
the recruiter's reel and so that's where this gets super interesting because they'll pass. I'm just seeing it left and right. Top talent will not bother and burn them once and they have a very long memory.
Joel (03:55.424)
Interesting. So this whole like the job will find you thing. And we heard this, we've been hearing this for awhile. Where is this born from? this, is this the tick tock algorithm that serves you up exactly what you want, when you want it, how you want it? Like, are we just getting to a point where we expect everything in the world to give us what we want, when we want, how we want, including job search?
J.T. O'Donnell (04:16.538)
Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think we're unrealistic to ask for it. It's not unrealistic at all. The algorithms are intelligent enough to be able to put in your path the things that you're interested in. And so what excites me is this, if you think about this future where literally you're a candidate just talking about what you know, right? You know this, open your phone app and you say, hey, you know, it says, tell me about your day. You know, what'd you work on today? What are you excited about? It's capturing all that information and it's documenting it for you.
Joel (04:17.656)
You
Joel (04:36.344)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (04:45.83)
Right? No more making a resume or even a LinkedIn profile per se. It's capturing all that. And then saying, hey, you said something cool here in 60 seconds, let's push that out. And now recruiters are finding you based on that and they're knocking on your door. Like that is coming. But it's going to require that authentication and video is going to play a huge, huge part of
Joel (04:51.121)
huh.
Joel (05:04.61)
Yeah, and we know not all algorithms are made the same.
So the other side of that, the organic being real. So I assume you're telling me that the stock photo on my career site isn't organic enough for the job seeker of today. And historically it's been like, I'm to go to glass door and find out what's going on. Like our review site is still important. Are the kids beyond that? Are they going, are they doing something else? How are they, how can a company be real and how can the job seeker smell bullshit?
J.T. O'Donnell (05:36.74)
Yeah, frequency and relevancy. So going over to Glassdoor, if they can't see a bunch of reviews in the last month, it's not accurate to them. And on top of that, those reviews were written by who? So when I keep coming back to this idea of authentication using video, you're going to need to produce a lot of content on a frequent basis as a way to document that you are who you say you are as an employer and that these opportunities are real and that they're accessible. Otherwise, they will not believe it.
On the flip side, you'll be able to expect the same thing from the candidate. But candidates are not a fan of Autonomous Video. I should make that really clear. They hate being sent a link, being forced to answer questions, and then not knowing where their information, their video is going. So you're going to see it fall on the candidate side. They're going to take ownership. Like a company that I've been counseling for a year and a half now, McCoy, it's a phone app. It was built by an ex -Disney, ex -Tinder, and ex -Googler. And the reason it's so successful, I honestly believe, is because it didn't come from the recruiting industry.
They actually solved for the job seeker and built them away to record videos and send them directly to a hiring manager who can look at them and then they get notified. So that kind of technology is already being downloaded by the thousands and being used by people to land jobs. It's only a matter of time.
Joel (06:34.039)
Yeah.
Joel (06:47.099)
Mm
All I heard there was former tender. talk to me about the phenomenon of not giving a shit about anonymity. the stories about people who record company calls around about layoffs and taking the HR department to task around why you're laying me off. I've been here. Like I just passed my 90 day review, videos with like insider footage about the company. Like
J.T. O'Donnell (06:53.731)
You
J.T. O'Donnell (07:05.551)
Mmm.
Joel (07:18.85)
My generation, and I assume yours as well, never would have thought of that, doing that in a million years as a young person. Why don't they care about getting pinched for putting themselves out there?
J.T. O'Donnell (07:30.97)
Because if you've ever heard the phrase, there's three sides to every story, there's yours and the truth is somewhere in the middle, right? This generation says, well, if I can record it in the moment and put it out there, I can crowdsource how people see and react to that to validate my own thoughts on this as opposed to I'm in there, I walk away, I say my point of view and I'm being told I'm a liar or I'm not telling the truth. This is about them documenting it as proof. And again, crowdsourcing it.
Joel (07:36.898)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (07:59.354)
so that collectively we're coming up with, what's the right take on what you just saw there? And they're all for it. They're tired of being finger wagged at, right? Or told to pipe down. This is their way to prove it and to validate themselves.
Joel (08:02.861)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (08:09.804)
Yeah.
Joel (08:13.762)
Yep. You might remember the Sherwin Williams story from a few years ago about the Sherwin Williams employee who would go to social media and mix paints up and put blackberries in paint and like, and he was a social media phenomenon. ended up firing him. Have we moved beyond that point or are companies by and large super scared of social media and their employees getting on it? Are we past that hopefully? Okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:23.429)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:29.595)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:37.078)
No, we're past it. think that they're sophisticated enough. Companies can put things in place to say, look, stuff that disparages us, that's negative, we're not going to support that. But if you want to do something that's a creative extension and allows people to understand what it's like to work there, by all means, what's really interesting now is that companies can then take that content and use it as advertising. So now I've got a way to boost that video, take it viral for my employee and help.
Joel (08:46.563)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (08:57.986)
Yep. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:02.906)
Hundreds of thousands of people see what it's really like to work there. And I think we need to talk about that because Gen Z, the secret to recruiting Gen Z right now is they need to see themselves in that environment. If they don't see their own representation, they're hesitant. They absolutely were raised on this idea of identify. If you can't self -identify in it, then there's probably something wrong there.
Joel (09:23.566)
Winning a generation that's winning. you, you had a post recently and I want to get to this before shout outs real quick. the automation of applying to jobs and the lazy apply, you can probably name a handful more than I can of, services that, that promise job seekers will apply to thousands of jobs, know, a thousand, you'll get 50 interested, you'll get 10 interviews, whatever, like companies are scared to death of this new technology.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:26.651)
Hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:34.682)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (09:52.807)
Give us your take on what's going on and how you see it sort of unfolding.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:57.798)
Yeah, it's fascinating. So I was talking to a VP of a Fortune 1000 who said, we posted a client success job, $100 ,000 a year, fully remote work. And in 48 hours, we had 3000 applicants. And we shut it down because the percentage of applicants that were such an exact match, we'd never seen before. So now our recruiters start calling them and find out they're all fake. People had used AI to generate exact matches, they threw out all 3000 applicants. Everyone got tossed. And they went back to, brace yourself,
Hey everybody, if you know somebody internally who took the time to reach out to you, to back channel to you, to get to you about this job, we'll consider them for the interview. So is that what we're getting for me? Like I said, I'm excited about the disruption because I think so many people are trying to build AI tech that's just going to bomb and break this even further. It will rise up to human connection through authentication, which again, I keep coming back to the video aspect of that.
Joel (10:39.416)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (10:52.844)
Yep.
J.T. O'Donnell (10:53.06)
really a big deal. But let me tell you also, job seekers, everyone thinks, it's the application process that's the problem, it's the resumes, it's not. The number one issue job seekers have right now is they can't understand if they're a fit for your job or not. I can't believe we're still there, right? With all the discussion around writing job descriptions, that's the problem. Written job descriptions are the problem. And matching themselves to a job based on their skills, not their background, their experience, but on their skills, that is what has been missing for years. So,
Joel (11:00.248)
Mm
Joel (11:10.659)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:21.926)
I'll give you an idea of some exciting technology. The folks over at JobLeap AI, former recruitings Josh, Pasit, Mark, we're partnering with them and they're building a custom application for us where they're taking the tools that we've built for job seekers to help them self -assess their value. Like how do they like to create work, how they like to add value on the job. They go through a little bot conversation and it's going to present to them 10 jobs that are currently available and tell them why they're a fit.
Joel (11:22.093)
Yeah.
Joel (11:49.186)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:49.774)
Then they look at it go, yes, no, yes, no. It listens to it. It fine tunes it. This is the kind of thing that job seekers have never had. So when we start doing that for job seekers, they're not gonna self -validate, I am a fit for this job. I have the confidence I will apply. That is not happening, but it is with this technology faster than you think.
Joel (12:08.256)
It's so interesting because we have this ecosystem that's developed on the job board publishing promotion side. There's an incentive for traffic and applies and because if you're a job site that doesn't produce clicks and views and applications, then you suck. So there's an incentive there to let the masses in and do whatever they want. Now you have technology that enables them to do that. And now you have companies saying, wait a minute.
3000 that were all thrown out. like something has to give, and it sounds like the technology that you're kind of telling us about, might be exactly what, the doctor ordered on that. So real quickly, that's work at daily .com. if you want to know more, we'll, that's not the last time we'll, mention work at daily, but, JD JT's doing some really interesting stuff on the job seeker side, which leads us to.
Joel (13:03.34)
That's right. We have a, we have a new sponsor, sponsor for shout outs. That's right. We are whores, JT, and we will sell anything. So we had this idea, Kiora got my hat on here, formerly rec text, they're a Canadian company out of Vancouver. They're like, Hey, what can we do? That's for your audience that will like spin us in a nice way. And I said, here's what we're to do. We're going to do maple syrup because you're Canada and everyone loves maple syrup from Canada, but we're going to age it in Pappy, Burble Bear, Bear.
bourbon barrels from Kentucky. So this is, this is 23 year old bourbon barrels aging your maple syrup, JT. And I know you're, you're neck of the woods there in new England, probably would love something like that. if you want some of this love from Canada, you got to go to Chadcheese .com click the free link and you could get some rare, very fine maple syrup from our friends at Kiora, the easy text recruiting solution, which leads us to my first shout out.
J.T. O'Donnell (13:42.512)
you know it.
J.T. O'Donnell (13:54.874)
Hmm.
Joel (14:01.272)
JT, robots, robots are having a moment. They've been having a moment for awhile, but it's sort of coming to a head. there was a story last week about Apple getting into the robot game. They seem to be skewing towards the at -home robot that will take out the trash, do the dishes, do the sort of home maintenance things that, everyone hates doing. And now there's a new company called one X technologies. they're out of Norway.
And everything that comes out of this, the Scandias are freakish and weird. And this is no different. This looks like a person in a robot uniform. but it's, it's actually a robot at the end of the video. the, the robot kind of puts its arm around the woman who's the owner of the robot. And it's very disturbing to me. Like it's almost a relationship kind of thing. And, and what scares me most about the robots is
The day that I can't take out the trash is the day that my wife has like no use for me whatsoever. So I feel like these robotization of everything is going to kill the species. The sex robots are coming for the men. The trash taking robots are coming out for the women. And in the middle of this is the destruction of the human race. So shout out to robots. It's fun to watch our destruction and especially if it comes out of Norway. So that goes to my first shout out.
What do have JT? You got a more sobering shout out, give it to us.
J.T. O'Donnell (15:24.342)
I do. My shout out is to seatbelts. So this is a public service announcement to everyone out there. I was on a business trip three weeks ago in Houston, going to the airport to the speaking engagement. My Uber was hit and run on the highway and thrown into a semi tractor. When I was done spinning, tossing, there was no car. The back of the car was gone. And the only reason I'm here is because I had a seatbelt on. And so I've just been telling everyone because a lot of business travelers out there
You get in the back of an Uber, a Lyft, a taxi, whatever it is, and you think someone else is driving. I don't need to put my seatbelt on. That's the only reason I'm here. I'm in a lot of pain. I'm in a lot of physical therapy, cracked ribs, but I'm here. I'm alive. And I just can't say, you know, I'm so grateful for your seatbelt. So please wear them, And tell everyone you know. Yeah.
Joel (16:12.206)
That is sobering and I'm, I'm guilty of it. get in the back seat. I don't think about it. I got my backpack. If I'm traveling, I've got my suitcase, like do it folks. mean, like this shit happens. Your life can change on a dime. JT is incredibly lucky, but you know, an inch difference or, know, a little bit faster or whatever, like who knows how, this could have ended. that's, that's a great public service announcement. shout out from you.
Wear your seat belts, everybody. And we wish you a fast recovery and a better health for sure. Yeah. I know your family's relieved that that, that that worked out for the, for the best. My last shout out goes to Kevin O 'Leary. You might know him as Mr. Wonderful from the Shark Tank series. Anyway, he, he's not a fan of this, of this trending right to disconnect law that's taking over in many countries. A few of them are France.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:41.774)
Mm -hmm. Thank you.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:48.251)
they are.
Joel (17:08.042)
Spain, Australia now, much of the usual suspects of the countries that give workers time off and healthcare and all that good stuff. Anyway, the right to disconnect is essentially if you're off the clock, your boss can't bother you. Or if they do bother you, can say like, or you can ignore them without getting fired. You can like, tell them I'm, I'm disconnecting, whatever. His take is look, if this is a stupid law, this is ridiculous. If anyone does this to me, I'm just going to fire them. And I'm sure they can fire them without like.
giving a reason like it is for disconnect, but I'm going to do it for something else for. So I'm curious, you talked to a lot of young people, obviously is Mr. Wonderful a dinosaur that is just eventually going to go away and things are going to change, or is he more of a, opinion that a lot of people have in bosses, matter what the industry or the ages.
J.T. O'Donnell (17:44.304)
Mm
J.T. O'Donnell (17:57.83)
There might be a lot of people with that opinion, but it's a dinosaur. I am a firm believer in it. I think it's a great thing to put in place as someone who, back in 2018, took my entire company, fully flexible 35 -hour work week, just because of the level of the mentality, the work that we do, and saw a double in the output and the results of the business. I know the importance of constraining, not just to give your employees a break, but also, to be perfectly honest, managers have to do a better job of managing their time.
Joel (18:15.576)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:24.486)
you should be able to figure out what you need from your employee during those set hours and not have to do it at 10 o 'clock at night. And so that piece of it is really important. What does that say about you and your own ability to manage work -life balance and be healthy if you can't manage that? And I think the younger generation, Gen Z in particular, this is like a moral dilemma that they're facing because they are very, very dialed into this. They only want to work so much.
They really are looking at their entire life and how to live it very mindfully, fully nurturing the other aspects of their life. That is not going to go away. That generation is going to build businesses around that and they're going to attract a whole lot of talent along with them. So this archaic, over the top, work yourself to death. mean, did you see it just came out the news? They found a woman four days dead at her desk. Nobody even knew. You know, like this kind of stuff just isn't right. We have to be way more mindful of taking care of our people and letting them walk away.
Joel (19:09.922)
Yeah. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (19:19.482)
letting them unplug, so yeah.
Joel (19:20.79)
Yeah, yeah. So Jamie Dimon, DJ Saul, Mr. Wonderful, JT has a message for you.
J.T. O'Donnell (19:27.05)
you
Joel (19:29.784)
Well, when people are in silent mode, we hope that they take a chance to register for more free stuff from Chad and cheese. I mentioned the maple syrup, but we have a lot more than that kids. we have free bourbon. There's a selection from me and Chad that we'll send to you. that is sponsored by our friends at Tex kernel, bought by bullhorn recently. so we'll, promote both of those guys. And we also have free beer from our friends at Aspen tech labs. And if it's your birthday, JT, if it's your birthday,
J.T. O'Donnell (19:50.554)
Hmm?
Joel (19:59.788)
You could win rum from our friends at Plum.
J.T. O'Donnell (20:05.649)
Will Ferrell's my favorite, like just my favorite. This thing makes me laugh every time. Love him.
Joel (20:07.382)
That's he's our favorite too. Trust me. Yeah. If you listen to the show. so celebrating another trip around the sun, our listeners, Alicia Buchler, Lucas Roscoe, Katie Gentry, John T. Han, Kevin Lowe, Alan Bourne, Laura Martinelli, Ruka Shaw, Nilo Slobodis, Paul Norman, Zach Martin, Kerry Quas, and Matt NAS for life are all celebrating another trip around the sun. And speaking of trips.
Chad and I are on the road. As you know, if you want to find out where we are, just go to ChadCheese .com, fill out the free stuff first, and then go check out our events calendar. We're going to be in Nashville next week for RecFest. We're in the Shaker green room. We're doing the Redneck Riviera with JobPixel video solution. You're probably familiar with some and some others. We're to be at HR Tech in the Smart Recruiters booth. We're going to be interviewing some great folks there. We're going to be in New Orleans later at the HR Gumbo conference. So Chad and I are going to be everywhere. Go to, go to events at our webpage.
J.T. O'Donnell (20:51.802)
Yeah.
Joel (21:05.058)
to see more. Also, JT, you're on YouTube. I don't know if you knew that or not, but recording this will also be on YouTube. Make sure you subscribe to that. We have some great shorts, gives you highlights of the show. We have some exclusive content. Just check out youtube .com slash at Chad Cheese. And lastly, but not leastly, it's fantasy football time. JT, that's right. We had our draft last night. We have our lineups and
J.T. O'Donnell (21:11.833)
Nice.
J.T. O'Donnell (21:31.62)
Huge.
Joel (21:34.146)
Here is the breakdown and the grades from best to worst of, of how we all drafted. Well, our friend, our friend, Chad, so wash, came in with an a plus grade, which, know, think that's the death knell of any draft. If you get an a plus, you're definitely not winning the league, but we also had another a plus with Jackson Dalquist, Keith Sonderling, the commission of the EEOC or, he got an a plus as well. So those are three people that will not be winning the
the fantasy football league sponsored by our friends at factory fix. Adam Gordon, our one of our second favorite Scott whined so much about playing. We're like, fuck it. Just let him play. He got an a in his draft and he auto drafted. He was asleep in Scotland, drunk on Scotch. I'm sure while that was happening, Sean Horton gets a B, David Stifle B minus Jen Tharp C minus. I got a D plus, which means I'm in the running to win the league.
J.T. O'Donnell (22:31.354)
You're winning.
Joel (22:33.326)
Dean Mackra got a D +, Christie Lisbon D-, Deena Pero who won the league last year got an F, and Laura Marknelli who I just mentioned in the birthday shout outs also got an F. So happy birthday that you get an F, you get an F for that one. And that is all of our housekeeping announcements, which brings us to...
J.T. O'Donnell (22:55.856)
Topics!
Joel (22:57.71)
I love it. love it. All right. Let's talk about jobs. U .S. job openings dropped to 7 .67 million in July, lower than expected, signaling a cooling labor market. This decreased the lowest since January of 2021, alongside a rise in unemployment to 4 .3%. Suggests potential economic slowdown influencing expectations.
J.T. O'Donnell (23:03.632)
Yeah.
Joel (23:22.722)
for Federal Reserve rate cuts. JT, what are your thoughts on the cooling labor market?
J.T. O'Donnell (23:28.29)
Yeah, it was cooling over a year ago. As somebody who coaches job seekers, this has been the fact that they're only now sharing this that drives me nuts. So what? hundred and eighteen thousand jobs miscalculated in terms of of what was available. They're saying by the time they're done that closer to a million. We've been saying this for a long time. The rate of underemployment is very high. So you are talking an incredible it is a white collar job recession right now.
Joel (23:40.131)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (23:55.334)
I mean, just before I got on with you, 27 ,000 tech job layoffs in August of this year, this year, like people do not understand how much the contraction is happening right now. And they're going out, they're going, why is it so hard to find a job? Why can't I get any calls back? Because it is a bad job market. And it's gonna stay this way for a while. And it just, it's frustrated me because I've had people coming in and saying, what's wrong with me? You know, they're telling me it's 4 % unemployment rate, two jobs for every one person. No, it isn't. It's not what's been going on.
Joel (23:55.352)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:26.011)
Maybe in jobs that couldn't pay your bills and that have nothing to do with your skill set, but it has been this bad for a while. just for them to finally open up about that, I feel a bit vindicated as I've been saying this for a while. But yeah, it's not going to get better for a stretch here. And I think that's going to be tough.
Joel (24:33.933)
you
Joel (24:42.69)
I think you're saying you're not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe, JT. So this is fascinating because, know, Chad and I, don't want to say we represent the older employed established set, but we kind of do. And I think your perspective of young people who don't have assets, who are getting that first job or just coming out of college, don't have stocks, don't have stuff. They're hurting.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:45.614)
I am not. I am not.
Joel (25:11.498)
And so whereas, whereas we look at this and we do a show with Toby Dayton of, of, of, of uplink and, he talks a lot about, he looks at jobs and says, Hey, this is exactly what the fed wants to happen. They want higher unemployment. They want to slow things down, like make it more expensive to, to borrow money. So from a fed's perspective, the soft landing is happening. It's this is what's supposed to happen. Then they're going to.
J.T. O'Donnell (25:28.624)
Mm
Joel (25:38.454)
reduced rates, people are going to borrow money again, people will hire again and things will be fine. So your perspective of, you know what, like people are hurting, is real. So I appreciate that perspective. I have to think that in a political season, this sort of throws a fly in the ointment. you have Trump saying, don't you dare cut, cut rates before or until after the election. And I'm sure on the other side, it's like they want
J.T. O'Donnell (25:49.296)
There we go.
Joel (26:05.516)
rates reduce, so the stock market goes back, people start borrowing, people can afford houses, et cetera. So I'm not sure anything big is going to happen before the election. What's your take on how your audience views Trump as president, Kamala as president? Do they say it doesn't matter who's in power or do they feel like each one does a separate thing? Are they split on political lines in terms of employment?
J.T. O'Donnell (26:30.31)
I mean, there's just overall general dissatisfaction with both candidates, both sides. There's the lack of confidence that job seekers have right now is sky high. And rightfully so. They've not seen anything that indicates that it's going to get better for them. whether we cut rates, you're not going to see the effects of that. The other thing I think we're not thinking about is that AI is literally contracting jobs. Where you used to need 10 marketers, you now can do it with one. And so while we talk about
Joel (26:33.441)
Okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (26:59.846)
The bigger the disruption, the bigger the innovation. Hey, a lot of really talented people are going to start companies because they got laid off. They've got some cash. They're going to start a company. That's going to happen, but they're not going to hire 100 people. They're going to build a $10 million company with four people. So there's not going to be the massive amount of job creation there in the white collar sector that people are anticipating. This is what I think people don't understand and what's going to drag it out through 2025.
Joel (27:24.386)
Yeah. And is there a lot of trepidation around, I mentioned robots and shout outs. How, how, how nervous are young people that are doing warehouse jobs that are delivering pizzas that are doing sort of those frontline jobs worried about, Flippy doing the burger, you know, job versus me.
J.T. O'Donnell (27:45.275)
Well, know, we're hyper focused on this. So we understand the ramifications and how this is really coming. But you're talking about people that are working in jobs every day and all they care about is getting through their day and collecting a paycheck. They're not thinking strategically about their career. You know, for those individuals, college educated, again, white collar, we're having lot of conversations like if you aren't figuring out how AI is part of your work solution, you're going to be like,
Joel (27:55.586)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (28:10.768)
You're gonna be removed. You have to figure out how you're gonna be the user of the AI and create a more powerful, more valuable product. You're a business of one. You're a service provider. But to all those hourly jobs you're talking about, those individuals aren't thinking that way. And so this stuff comes out of the blue to them and says, why are they doing this to me? Well, we've known it's been coming for a while.
Joel (28:30.104)
Tons of TA recruiters listen to this show. Like, what is your take on the future of the recruiting profession?
J.T. O'Donnell (28:36.792)
Yeah. So like any profession, I think recruiters need to really be worried because I see this technology as clearing out anybody that is not a high performer in the space and understands the job seeker and what it's going to take to get that top talent to respond to you. And I'll give you a great example. Recruiter bots are the nemesis of job seekers.
And I know how many talent acquisition specialists on here are guilty of using it, right? I do a search, it pulls up thousands of people that fit these criteria, sends them all this personal email that says, hey, I looked at your profile and I think you're a fit. Can you message me back your resume and times for an interview? Job seekers drop everything to respond back at lightning speed, only to be ghosted in their mind. Because what really happened is that's the first time the recruiter looked at who responded and then decides if they want to contact them or not. This happens every single day. What you don't understand is that job seeker,
Joel (29:14.168)
Mm
J.T. O'Donnell (29:23.782)
when they get ghosted and they come to me and my team and says, I sent them everything, why aren't they responding to me? I followed up with them three times and I explained that was a bot, they're humiliated. They will never work for that company and they will tell 15 or their friends. And that's what people aren't thinking about on the tech side. They're running to implement AI and to build all this tech to make it easier on the recruiting side, but you're not thinking about the implications on the other side. And so I just, would...
Joel (29:37.313)
Interesting.
J.T. O'Donnell (29:50.04)
warn people in the recruiting space, the contractions coming, you need to be thinking about and understanding the job seeker. Really understanding the job seeker is going to be the name of the game for you.
Joel (30:01.016)
So you're bearish on conversational AI, chat bots, sort of the ER, okay?
J.T. O'Donnell (30:04.774)
I am huge. I am big time, but not just chat bots. I'm all about authentication. Forget authenticity. Like that's been the conversation for far too long. Authentication. You are going to be using video. Both sides are going to be using video to authenticate they are who they say they are and to drive those human to human interactions at scale in real time. That's exciting to me. You know, I can give you a crazy futuristic view if you want to hear it. That's not 40 years away. It's two years away.
where there will be no resumes anymore. You're documenting what you do for work. You're talking into an app, McCoy. It's grabbing all that. It's posting for you. And then recruiters are finding you based on that AI match. And all of a sudden, the right recruiters are in your inbox offering you the right jobs. That is coming. Where does the recruiter fit in that? How do they drive that?
Joel (30:44.12)
Mm
Joel (30:57.774)
I'd like to talk more about this, but I need to get off the ledge because you are bringing me down. Let's talk about popping some champagne at the oyster headquarters. Oyster startup focused on global employment solutions has raised $59 million in a series D funding round, bringing its total to $286 million and giving it a $1 .2 billion.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:03.174)
Hahaha
J.T. O'Donnell (31:07.685)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:16.3)
Yeah.
Joel (31:24.172)
valuation. That's right. Unicorn alert, oyster CEO, Tony Jamies in a blog post said, quote, it will also empower us to accelerate our roadmap, scale our impact and remain the first choice for employers looking for a specialized global employment experience. JT, before we get to you, Chad could not help himself. He had to sound off on this new race. Let's, let's hear what Chad had to say.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:45.219)
it. Love it.
J.T. O'Donnell (32:01.254)
twice.
Joel (34:21.333)
Mine's in the gutter, that's why.
J.T. O'Donnell (34:22.671)
you
J.T. O'Donnell (34:26.192)
Love it. Love it.
Joel (34:27.297)
All right, JT, your take on this and you have an interesting perspective because you were an advisor with an oyster competitor.
J.T. O'Donnell (34:32.87)
I was, I was to the, yeah. So the original founder of remote, I was an advisor back in 2015 and I saw it coming and couldn't be more exciting. And a lot of people say, wait, is remote going away? no. Remote is here to stay. It is allowing for globalization. It's allowing us to access talent that we couldn't have otherwise gotten. To me, that's always exciting. I like that there's several players in the space. I think you also need that too, right? You can watch what they do and they like a horse race. You see who's going to win, but, congrats to oyster.
Joel (34:46.787)
Mm
J.T. O'Donnell (35:02.682)
So, you know, make sense. Everything Chad said, I ditto.
Joel (35:09.516)
You know, we were, we were pretty hard on oyster, for a while. Chad and I sat here during the pandemic. We saw all these global platforms get millions and millions of dollars, huge valuations. And we were like, this is crazy. But we also said, who's going to come out, who's going to be Coke, who's going to be Pepsi, who's going to be Dr. Pepper and Fanta. And like, how is this all going to shake out? I think we can both agree that deal is by far and away, the Coke.
J.T. O'Donnell (35:18.298)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (35:39.214)
of this space. But Oyster had some layoff rounds in 23 and this year, they felt a little bit disjointed and lost at sea. And then we had Jason Corcello on the podcast. He's an investor at Acadian Ventures, who was an early investor in Oyster. I don't if it was online, but either in the green room or we got it on tape, but basically he said, you guys are kind of being hard on Oyster. They're actually
doing a lot of cost cutting. They're creating a lot of efficiencies. I don't bury them just yet. And we respect Jason a whole lot and we, should have listened to him. and here we have a new round of money from oyster still a long way to go. you know, the company has grown seven X over the last two years and they're serving 1400 customers worldwide. A little bit of context of that 1400 versus what deal claims as 35 ,000.
customers. So Oyster is a distant, if it's second, a distant second. We haven't heard from remote in a while. Velocity Global's been quiet. We have some European players and Personio and Hi Bob, but this is a really interesting space. But Oyster definitely gave themselves a leg up with this round of money. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk a little bit DEI when we come back.
Joel (37:04.172)
All right, JT, we could do a whole show on this, but Chad and I have been talking about the death of DEI and companies abandoning it and the Supreme Court. So it's a complex issue, but this week alone, Molson Coors said that they plan to cut supplier diversity quotas and DEI -based training programs, as well as sever ties with the Corporate Equality Index of the LGBTQ plus advocacy group Human Rights Campaign. But wait, there's more.
J.T. O'Donnell (37:06.981)
Yeah.
Joel (37:32.142)
Ford Motor Company also joined in. This joins the likes of Harley -Davidson, Lowe's and John Deere, who are scaling back diversity, equity, inclusion efforts. JT, what are your thoughts and specifically what are job seekers' opinions of what companies are doing here?
J.T. O'Donnell (37:46.052)
Yeah. Now, and you've talked about it here before. This seems to be so reflective of a market, right? When the market starts to contract and businesses are really looking at the bottom line, it gets really easy for them to say this just isn't necessary. And we've seen this before. We know it. Here's my silver lining. Here's what I truly believe as someone who works with so many job seekers and a lot of Gen Z. They were raised to look for inclusiveness. They've been exposed to this, talked about it.
want to see it questioned when it's not there. And I just have to believe and want to believe that as they become the next generation of managers and business owners, that that's still just be organic to them in the same way that all the women that I know will now immediately look and say, is there a female on the board? What's the female leadership look like? You know, we took a long time for us as women to pay attention to that and to call it out. And I think that these generations are going to call out that diversity, I hope.
And I certainly am going to nurture that every step of the way. It's a big part of what we coach too. So hopefully that'll help on the back end.
Joel (38:54.318)
This is an ongoing conversation on the podcast. When the Supreme Court struck down affirmative action, the memories of George Floyd had faded, the pandemic was out. To me, it gave companies an out to say, is not our thing. It became politicized, it became these businesses don't, these businesses do. And let's be honest, when John Deere
J.T. O'Donnell (38:57.268)
Mm.
Joel (39:22.902)
or Harley Davidson says we're out, how many of their customers are saying, well, fuck that. I'm not driving a Harley Davidson anymore. They're not interested in diversity and like none of them. So it's become like, if our customers don't give a shit, or if our customers, our customers don't want us to do it because they have these political views that are opposite of what sort of what we were doing. Then you get in this like divide of, well, these products are for these types of people and these products are for these types of people.
It did shock me that Microsoft sort of said the quiet part out loud recently when they said that this is sort of a bad investment. We're getting out of this. They fired their diverse, their DI teams and they were spending a lot of money doing that when it come to like Microsoft who services everybody, says we're out. Like to me, that is a real red flag that this is a trend that we're seeing. You have a comment.
J.T. O'Donnell (40:12.142)
Yeah. And what about desensitization to it too, right? We've just seen so much controversy, so much that I think people just start to get numb to it too. And then it doesn't matter anymore. You know, they just don't care. They want to move on to the next topic. And to me, I've seen a lot of that just like, yeah, they throw their hands in the air.
Joel (40:25.197)
Yeah.
I think if companies had their druthers, they wouldn't have to be political at all. They wouldn't have to take a stand. They wouldn't have to do these things, but society says that they do or don't. to your point of like, if the workforce of the future says, look, you'd need to take a stand and I need to agree with your stance, if I'm going to work for you and support your efforts, then that is a really interesting quandary for our employers. Like, what do we do? And I think you see some saying like, look, we're not here to make political statements. We're here to make a product.
J.T. O'Donnell (40:51.834)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (40:57.56)
that our customers love and that's it. And I think a lot of, a lot of job seekers will be like, okay, that's fine. I can be political in my own time. and that's a whole other ball of wax. do wonder if how much of this is a bet on who's going to win the presidency. Cause I do think that if Trump comes in, we'll see more of this sort of abandonment. We'll see more of like a meritocracy opinion and we'll see less regulation. Kamala has been on record about.
J.T. O'Donnell (41:05.876)
Mm
Joel (41:25.198)
pay, you know, pay, pay equity, like calling out, naming names, like, so, so I think that scares a lot of employers to death. A lot of job seekers and common folk, if you will, probably love that. But I think the political will be really interesting. If Trump gets in, remember in 2016, we saw a lot of commercials that were sort of like America first. We built America and we're not Chinese. I think we'll, we'll, lean back to that. if Kamala gets in, I think it'll be kind of a trend, a slower trend to where we are. Interestingly with.
with colleges, we're just starting to see where colleges are landing with bringing in new students. And MIT recently released their freshman class demographics. I guess not surprisingly to some, black and Hispanic student numbers were reduced significantly. Now you could come back and say, the MIT student is typically not that demographic.
But now when we start getting numbers in for state schools and public, like, so that'll be interesting. If schools start abandoning. Dei then companies just won't give a shit. mean, so comp schools to me are big indicators as to where, the world is going to go, but yeah, it's a, you live in interesting times. May you live in interesting times. And speaking of, diversity issues, one that's not talked about so much is age.
J.T. O'Donnell (42:32.975)
Agreed.
J.T. O'Donnell (42:41.422)
Mm -hmm
J.T. O'Donnell (42:49.38)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (42:49.55)
I think age and weight are two prejudices that don't get enough attention. So thankfully indeed being the dumb asses they are on occasion have a reason for us to talk about it. A recent Indeed report has been called ageist after it labeled workers aged 45 as quote late career and 55 plus as quote in decline. Lindsay Simpson, the founder and CEO at 55 redefined group.
called out indeed for what she sees as quote blatantly ageist and irresponsible content end quote. She argued that indeed content perpetuates harmful stereotypes and undermines the potential of older workers. Indeed eventually took the guy down saying quote, the content was wrong period end quote, but the damage may have already been done. JT, what are your thoughts on ageism?
J.T. O'Donnell (43:41.926)
I can't even wrap my head around the fact that somebody put that out there. Where was the fact checker on that? Who was making sure that that didn't get published? Job seekers are already very defensive about age discrimination.
Joel (43:55.311)
Here's the fact checking room we have right now.
J.T. O'Donnell (43:58.886)
Yeah. I mean, that is like one of the biggest things that I hear anybody over the age of 40 right now is petrified of age discrimination and understandably so. then for them to, I mean, decline, are you kidding me? So insensitive, so negative. But you know, what I'm seeing is a lot of really talented people landing incredible jobs because of their experience.
if they know how to brand it. And I think that's the one thing that we haven't done a good job in our country is helping people understand that as you get older and you get more experienced, you actually, you climb the job pyramid. We talk a lot about this. And so all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're in the major leagues because there's a lot fewer jobs and a lot of people competing for those jobs. So people assume over time, it's just going to get easier and easier for me to get a job as I get more experienced. It's not how it works. All of a sudden, as you get up there, you're playing major leagues. And I think that for experienced workers is a scary thing. Good news is, is we can teach them a lot of things to
really showcase those skills and be a valuable asset. I also think going back to remote work, fractional is huge and hot and I predict it will stay huge and hot, which is you have an incredible skill set. Don't go to work full time for someone. Go do 10 hours a week for three companies and make three times the money. That is a great way to go, but we haven't trained people to think that way. And so the technologies and things that are being built are going to afford those folks to do that and say, okay, I'm making enough to pay my own insurance and things like that.
So that part gets really exciting for me. Second act careers, making more money than you made before is all possible over 50, but you have to know how to approach it, leverage the right technology, brand yourself correctly. So if you're over 50, you're just beginning. Don't listen to that junk.
Joel (45:38.318)
All right. It's, we, can we officially cancel indeed now let's just cancel indeed everybody. I'm kidding. I mean, my, my view of this is some 23 year old intern probably made this content and didn't think twice about it. and then someone said, shit. because it was called out. mean, for where people are living now, healthy lives, longer lives. It's, it's, it's a shame that we would even consider labeling 45 as like, or 55 plus.
J.T. O'Donnell (45:48.649)
Mm
Joel (46:08.366)
And then, and then you come on this podcast and talk about video and algorithms and automated and like people over 40 have to be scared shitless about the future. what, what makes this additionally bad is indeed indeed promotes itself as like captain inclusive. I mean, they literally have a movie called rising voices, which highlights diversity and inclusion. Their CEO is Uber DI. So like,
If this was zip recruiter, I'd probably give them a pass somebody in Santa Monica, like on the beach, but this, but indeed does not get a pass on this. Like they should know better. And you know, just for that, they get a big, they get a big boo, from me. again, ageism, we don't talk enough about, I think, weight and even on the younger, like there's, there's, there's prejudice that we don't talk about and we should. if nothing else,
J.T. O'Donnell (47:00.952)
Ageism on the young side.
Joel (47:04.27)
We had a moment of talking about ageism and saying like old people like me, I won't call you. I don't know your age. So I, I know, I know your experience. 56. Yeah. Doesn't look a day over 26. Yeah. I need, I need to go to you for age age tips. proud Jen Xers. Let's, let's leave it at that. Let's leave it at that. And when we come back, we'll talk about LinkedIn, doing the dumb thing.
J.T. O'Donnell (47:11.398)
56 just turn 56. I'll own it. Yeah. Yeah 56. I'm so I'm on the decline. I'm on the indeed decline
J.T. O'Donnell (47:23.812)
Yeah, right.
Joel (47:34.444)
All right, JT, let's talk a little LinkedIn in partnership with I heart radio. They've launched, let's talk offline. A podcast aimed at Gen Z. That's your, that's your peeps professionals focusing on career navigation and personal values. The initiative is part of a broader collaboration between LinkedIn and I heart media to expand professional content through podcasts.
The podcast will cover topics like salary negotiation and is available on various platforms. In addition to iHeartRadio, LinkedIn, and other major podcasting services. JT, is this thing going to be chart topping or destined for the dustbin with Gen Z?
J.T. O'Donnell (48:17.366)
So I'm not going to say dustbin. I don't know that it'll necessarily be chart topping, but I do think it hits an unmet need in the market. So when we're talking to Gen Z on a daily basis, they are really trying to figure out this work -life balance thing, and they're not going to seek that advice from their parents because they don't want the life that their parents had. They identify with their own generation talking through these things. And so when you look at who's hosting it, a pair of Gen Zs and just the whole
nature of it, you know, the work life, the understanding of it, how to wrap our head around it, how to make decisions around it. I think it's timely. I think that if it's done right, they'll get some following. Do I think it's gonna be something everyone obsesses over? No. But I do think it hits an unmet need. So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
Joel (49:03.596)
JT's bullish on LinkedIn. I have a different opinion whatsoever.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:06.597)
I am.
Joel (49:12.854)
All right. So we had zip recruiter last week. They've launched a podcast. when blogs were cool, there was a period where every corporation had to have a blog because if we're going to be cool and create content and show up on Google, like we gotta have a, we gotta have a blog and they all sucked. No one shared posts, no one comment. Like there was no engagement whatsoever. So if you still have, have blogs, but they're mostly for just content and SEO podcasts are the same thing.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:15.386)
Yeah.
Joel (49:41.454)
All the cool kids are podcasting the road. Joe Rogan's the call me daddy. Like everything that's fun and cool has a podcast. And now every corporation thinks, well, we need a podcast too. So Zipper could or launches talent all -stars, which is a horrible name. they're in week three or four of this podcast as of this, as of this recording on Thursday, they have 14 reviews. 14. have a, they employ over a thousand people, JT.
Can't they send a group message and say, Hey, leave us a review on our new podcast. No 14. Okay. So now LinkedIn comes along and says, well, we'll do you one better. We're going to be cool with the kids. We're going to like have a Gen Z show. could it work? Yeah. Is LinkedIn the one to do it? No. Like if this becomes a thing, it'll actually be someone 27 that has some experience and brings in other people. And like that's
It's not going to work as a LinkedIn. And by the way, I heart radio, I heart radio. These are radio. When was the last radio station? Like your kids listen to the only ones my listen to listen to are the ones that I listened to because they're stuck in the car with me going somewhere. Like I heart radio is not the right partner. Like partner with Spotify partner, like the cool kid on campus, not I heart radio. I'll, I'll stop from here, but I don't.
I don't see this taken off with the kids whatsoever. It's way too fabricated. It's way too manicured. It's LinkedIn. Like it's my, my parents' social media, like no way.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:08.781)
Yeah, but.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:16.678)
Yeah, okay, but I'm to challenge you on two fronts. First of all, they started a podcast network in 2023. They've been at this for a while. They dive into deep into things and have a roster of podcasts that they're leveraging. Secondly, do not underestimate the power of the video feed that's coming out on that app. It's insane. And when a billion users are linking a video, it's going to be a game changer. So they have an opportunity now to take that video, put it on other platforms where Gen Z is and
Joel (51:45.646)
Mm -hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:46.328)
educate them and draft them over to LinkedIn. And so I do not say it's out. I actually love these moves. I've seen the direct impact of that video feed. It is game changer. When I was in the beta and they drop a video in there, I'd go, what the heck is going on? Why is every light going off? Because of the surge. So they know what they're doing. like I said, is it a chart Tupper? Is it a call me daddy? No. But.
Joel (52:03.601)
huh.
Joel (52:13.066)
Okay, okay, JT. Okay, okay. me one of these podcasts that you champion.
J.T. O'Donnell (52:14.958)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (52:21.86)
What, of theirs? no, I, no they have a roster, doesn't mean I listen to all of them, but they have a roster of shows that are designed to help people understand career or various issues. you know, I think them researching and doing that is, they've always had the ability to experiment and learn and grow from that. So yeah, I just wouldn't count them out yet.
Joel (52:23.746)
Yeah, you said they have all these shows?
Joel (52:43.63)
Well, like most things in life, time will tell. And hopefully you'll come back on the show and we can talk about LinkedIn's uber successful podcast, which leads us JT to our dad joke of the week. Are you ready for this? What do you call, what, what do you call two average white guys?
J.T. O'Donnell (52:59.32)
here we go, yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:05.571)
I don't know.
Joel (53:07.19)
a podcast.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:08.708)
Hahaha
Joel (53:11.022)
So we're talking in the green room. You haven't seen the SNL skit. I'm gonna play it on the show in case you haven't seen this as well. It's pretty funny. Give me a second here if I can share my screen.
Joel (53:46.709)
You
Joel (55:04.472)
You
Joel (55:53.592)
good stuff, good stuff.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:56.526)
It explains so much. It does. It explains so much.
Joel (56:01.271)
All right, JT. All right, JT, hopefully I made your day a little brighter. All right, thanks for joining us in absence of Chad. For those that wanna connect with you, learn more, where do you send them?
J.T. O'Donnell (56:12.206)
Yeah, head on over to workadaylee .com. Plain and simple. We out!
Joel (56:15.094)
And with that, we out.