In this episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, Joel and Chad serve up a smorgasbord of topics, starting with their culinary misadventures at Chipotle and a deep dive into their latest tech crush. They don't miss the chance to bask in their own glory, flaunting Spotify's year-end wrap-up that confirms their podcast's meteoric rise—because who doesn't love a good pat on the back?
The duo then tackles the TikTok-driven surge in social commerce, likening it to a modern-day QVC for the swipe-right generation. They brainstorm ways for LinkedIn to spice up job applications with video content, because nothing says "hire me" like a self-taped monologue.
The conversation takes a somber turn as they discuss LinkedIn's recent layoffs and the slow decline of the ERE conference, reminiscing about the golden days of recruitment. They delve into the shifting landscape of sourcing, highlighting the fierce competition between Rippling and Deel in the global payroll arena. Rippling has been pulling what some might call "snake moves," aggressively targeting Deel with marketing campaigns. It's like watching two tech startups in a WWE match—who knew payroll could be so cutthroat?
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:31.672)
two guys you wouldn't want to touch with a 39 and a half foot pole. Hi kids. It's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel presidential pardon cheeseman.
Chad (00:42.164)
And this is Chad, snakes on a plane, so watch.
Joel (00:45.036)
And on this episode, Rippling unleashes the snake. Is ERE adapting or dying? And Walmart bends over for newly elected president Trump. Let's do this.
Chad (01:01.364)
So how's the weather over there, huh? How's the weather? As you can see. 16, Freezing, baby, freezing. That's just, that's not nice. That's not nice.
Joel (01:01.578)
What's up, Chad? It's freaking cold. Let me check my app. 16 degrees, 16 degrees Fahrenheit here in central Indiana. It's good time. Yeah, you look much more comfortable. Do I dare ask what the temperature is in Portugal right now?
Chad (01:18.58)
Mmm.
Yep, round 70, round 70. It's the skating around that, around there. It's nice, yeah. First part of December, first part of January, it's during the day. It'll drop at least 20 degrees at night, but it's wonderful.
Joel (01:29.474)
Yeah.
Joel (01:34.684)
huh.
Yeah, these are the days where I need a warm barbacoa bowl to keep me keep me happy.
Chad (01:41.707)
Hahaha
Joel (01:47.726)
By the way, I have a Chipotle story that is relevant to our business. I went into Chipotle this week. I know that shocks you. And I go to check out, I'm wearing my paradox swag, my jacket, coat, windbreaker, if you will. And the guy at the register says, do you work for paradox? And I was like, well, that's weird. And I said, but I'm a friend of paradox.
Chad (01:47.902)
Grubhub.
Imagine that. Imagine that.
Chad (02:01.274)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's very nice. Yeah.
huh.
Chad (02:11.385)
Ha!
Joel (02:15.206)
And, the guy says, yeah, we just implemented paradox, as our hiring system. And I said, well, how's it going? He said, he said, well, we had a few bumps with the, the scheduling at first, but we've, we've, we've worked that out. and we really like it. And I said, do the job seekers like it? And he said, yeah, they seem to like it a lot better than filling out an application and submitting it. liked the chat. So that's my, that's my, that's my newly found friendship with my local Chipotle. I go in with my paradox and hope that I get a free.
Chad (02:20.668)
No shit. No shit.
Chad (02:25.822)
Mm.
Chad (02:34.388)
Black hole, yeah.
Joel (02:45.228)
burrito at some point, but other than that, not and no one. I don't think that's ever happened to me in 25 years in the industry. Like no one's ever said, do you work for ISEMS or do you work for some random, you know, vendor? that was, that was kind of exciting for me.
Chad (02:46.674)
Yeah, no shit, right?
Chad (02:53.106)
Yeah.
Chad (02:59.89)
Yeah, only fans. Yeah, so. So, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't surprise me that you were in Chipotle, but it does surprise me. And that's really cool that down at the store level, they actually know the product. I mean, that's that's really fucking cool. Yeah, I mean, that's awesome. And you're right. I mean, if you go through a lot of these older kind of like legacy applicant tracking systems like we've been talking about a lot of the franchise, they don't use them.
Joel (03:14.69)
The brand. Yeah.
Joel (03:30.094)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (03:30.268)
They just don't use them just because they weren't made for it. So that's really cool. out to Good Swag and Paradox. Okay, I'm gonna hit my first, I'm gonna hit shout outs. And shout out is going to be to Spotify year end wrap up. Kids, you see these all the time. You love these. You know you love them. This one's for the Chad and Cheese podcast. I just love how Spotify wraps up all of their staff.
Joel (03:35.224)
So exciting.
Chad (03:58.99)
and they make them look sexy. It's just great marketing mechanism for them. And here is some stats that they've wrapped up. Spotify is wrapped up for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Are you ready? Drum roll, baby. Give me drum roll. Got a drum roll?
Joel (04:10.798)
I'm ready. Hit me with those amazing, amazing, amazing numbers, I can't wait.
Chad (04:16.106)
Hahaha
So we had great numbers last year, so I thought this year they wouldn't be as great. I was wrong. 121 % increase in listeners. 340 % increase in streams. So we're not just getting listeners, they're listening a lot. 31 % increase in followers. We're a top 10 show, a top 10 show for 3,000 plus fans.
Joel (04:29.304)
Wow.
Joel (04:36.078)
Damn.
Joel (04:42.392)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (04:46.019)
Yeah.
Chad (04:48.498)
We're a top five show for 2500, nearly 2500 fans. And we are the number one podcast for 832 of you beautiful people that are out there. You're make me cry. Gonna make me cry. I told myself I wouldn't do this.
Joel (04:53.474)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (05:07.83)
That's that's over 800 people that need therapy immediately if we are their their number one show, you know, you know, it was, it was the year of the podcast we saw in the presidential presidential race. And for whatever reason, podcasts are having a moment. I mean, if you break that down with our reach and you know, the conferences that we attend, the media properties that we, you know, have that we know well, like
Chad (05:10.484)
This is therapy. This is therapy.
Yeah. Yep. huh.
Chad (05:28.297)
Yeah.
Chad (05:31.7)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (05:36.78)
We're as competitive in terms of attention as probably any of those entities. mean, if you stop to think about how many people come by our booth on a weekly basis to see us and hear us and listen to our sponsors, like that's, it's kind of a big deal. think that what really comes into play with podcasts is a level of trust and engagement that's so personal.
Chad (05:44.476)
yeah.
Joel (06:04.078)
because you're in people's ears. mean, now we're more in people's eyeballs, which I'm fearful of, but, it's, an amazing medium. mean, no one really blogs anymore. you know, they do, but it's, it's just not what it is. mean, tick tocks are kind of the next thing, that, that you'll see a lot of, engagement with, but yeah, it's, pretty amazing. This road that we've been on, we're like a eight year old overnight success, but it's, I'm, I'm impressed. And that's just Spotify.
Chad (06:21.364)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (06:33.122)
I mean, Apple music is our number one source of traffic. So if you take those Spotify numbers, multiplying by two, that's kind of where we're looking. And I think, did you read the demographic breakdown?
Chad (06:33.64)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (06:45.65)
Yeah, demographic breakdown was generally on the higher age range side. So, I mean, we are getting don't get me wrong, we're going to have the entry level, the recruiters, we're going to have some of the you know, the ones who who want to get into leadership roles. But for the most part, they're on the older side. So they're going to be more the the leadership side of the house. And go figure decision makers.
Joel (06:53.496)
Yeah.
Joel (07:00.046)
Yeah.
Joel (07:05.806)
But we're also, I thought it was very, it was pretty even. I didn't feel like we skewed really old. I thought we had a good demographic connection. Maybe that Spotify has a piece of that, but.
Chad (07:12.849)
No.
Chad (07:16.468)
35 to 54 is like, that is like the mage. Now that's two demographics, but they were, yeah, that was, was, that's our sweet spot.
Joel (07:20.812)
Yeah, that's the sweet spot.
Yeah. Yeah. And if you're a, you if you're looking to get in front of an audience, that's the audience everyone wants to get in front of. So, so good. Good on us. Good on us. We're hiding checks. So speaking of winning, my, my shout out goes, goes to social commerce. I had a lot of time this holiday week and to surf, the socials and I was, I was just so impressed with social commerce.
Chad (07:32.786)
Write in checks, big boy. Those are the ones who are writing checks.
Joel (07:55.18)
I bought my first thing on tick tock mostly because I just wanted to see that how the experience would be. I mean, it's like, it's like QVC personalized for you. And the it's amazing. Like the algorithm, like what you watch the products that they present to you. What I'm sure as you buy more and more stuff, they give, they put more and more of that in front of you. and it's so easy. It's like,
Chad (07:57.789)
Okay.
Chad (08:05.948)
Really?
Chad (08:15.07)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (08:18.642)
Gets it tuned. Yeah, I bet. Easily.
Joel (08:22.872)
Click to pay, click pay done shipping. They send you updates. It's fantastic. And we talk Amazon, but I'm, I'm not searching. They just like present it to you and you go, that's pretty cool. Like, it's 50 % off today. Like, yeah. And there's a clock counting down of how long that deal lasts, which is total bullshit. And I know that, but I still fall for it, Chad.
Chad (08:28.84)
very Amazon-like, kind of like one click. Is that what you're talking about? Very Amazon-like.
Yeah.
Chad (08:39.27)
You want this? You want this? Yeah, yeah.
Chad (08:45.72)
huh. Yeah, of course. It gets me every time.
Joel (08:48.91)
We talk a lot about the threats to Google and their market share and perplexity and AI, if more and more shopping goes to TikTok, and I looked up some numbers because I was interested, the influencer marketing hub predicts that by 2030, social commerce revenue is expected to reach $6.2 trillion.
Chad (08:53.459)
Mm.
Chad (08:58.938)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (09:14.412)
dollars worldwide. It's a fracture that now so it's gonna grow immensely but if you do more and more of your shopping on social media and less on searching on Google that's gonna be a big hit to Big G. anyway, shout out to Social Commerce. I'm rarely impressed these days about something but they have nailed this. And I gotta think if you're linked in
Chad (09:22.611)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:36.468)
It's scary.
Joel (09:39.638)
And you're launching these shorts now and these videos, which I think is cool. Like I get, I get on these shorts on LinkedIn. I'm like, where the hell am I? I don't even know. And I, this is LinkedIn. They need to create a quit, like a one click apply with your LinkedIn profile. So companies can put on videos about like, if they know you're a manager of something, then they show you manager of a company locally to you. Like, here's my job. If you want to know more, apply now click here.
Chad (09:47.444)
Hahaha
Chad (09:59.444)
Yeah, yeah.
Joel (10:04.898)
Like LinkedIn better do this because this is the future. think this, the idea of searching is fine, but like showing people and targeted opportunities and just let them click and apply. Like that's, that could be huge for them.
Chad (10:11.23)
Yeah?
Chad (10:19.378)
All they have to do is buy job pixel and it's done.
Joel (10:22.21)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chad (10:24.016)
Next question. mean, I mean, seriously, the the the I mean, we're both advisors. OK, so don't get me wrong, kids, we're just we're getting it out there. But seriously, if they bought a platform like JobPixel, it's already ready. It's ready already. All you have to do is go in there, have somebody, know, who's a nurse talk about the nursing job. Click below. Boom. You know, put in the requirements, do all that stuff. And obviously you can still do the normal text based stuff, but do the video stuff. I mean, what the hell? I mean, why not?
Joel (10:52.386)
Yeah. If you want to get in front of passive job seekers, the people that aren't searching jobs, give them a video, show them the company, show them the job, entice them and say like, Hey, apply now. What do you got? What do you got to lose?
Chad (10:56.34)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Chad (11:04.83)
Well, do that on LinkedIn and then also go to people like JT O'Donnell, who has over a million followers on TikTok and have her say, hey, my viewers, have her talk about the job and have influencers do it too. I mean, this is a new market that we really have to be focused on. Video, snackable content, it's just, it's so sexy. And again, from a relevance standpoint, as you had said,
Joel (11:23.704)
Sure, yeah.
Chad (11:33.818)
It's going to deliver up. when you have influencers who have the kind of weight that like a JT has, holy shit, man, that's an all day thing.
Joel (11:41.73)
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Flockety, our friends at Flockety are thinking of something similar as well, integrating into LinkedIn. TP, TP, almost as good as free shit from Chad and Cheese.
Chad (11:45.845)
Tracy Parsons. yeah, she'd kill that, yeah.
I tell you what.
Nothing's good as free shit from Chad and Cheese. And here's why kids, because you all know that those sexy t-shirts that you see being worn that everybody talks about, they talk about because they feel like a hug from Chad and Cheese. Those are provided by our friends at Air and App. Bourbon barrel aged syrup. This is, and it's got to come from Canada because that's where the best stuff comes from. Kiora, that's right. Kiora.
Joel (12:05.198)
Hmm.
Joel (12:20.347)
the 51st state, Canada. You did see that right, Trump on Canada.
Chad (12:27.378)
No, no, I don't. I don't want to go down that road. Jesus Christ.
Joel (12:30.318)
Well, you know, know, Justin Trudeau went to visit Trump to kiss the ring. and apparently Trump, Trump joke that they, Canada should just be the 51st state and Trudeau could be governor. then, and then Trump posted a picture of himself on a mountain with a Canada flag, Canadian flag. It says, Canada. Anyway, sorry. Yes. Our friends at Canada, maybe the. Chiara. Yeah. The maple circle still tastes great.
Chad (12:35.71)
Yeah, go figure.
Chad (12:49.352)
Anyway, Kiora, yes. Yes. Also, also sponsors a shout outs. Beer, craft beer by Aspen Tech Labs. That's right. A whole box craft beer. You're love it. Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey from our friends. Two bottles of whiskey from our friends at Tex Kernel by Bullhorn. And birthdays. If it's your birthday, Rum with plum. Win some high value rum from plum.
Go to ChadCheese.com slash free.
Joel (13:24.044)
That's right, Chad. Some lucky listeners are celebrating another trip around the sun. By the way, December, think we're going to up the game a little bit on the giveaways this month. We're going to like crank it up a little bit on the niceties. So get, get ready kids. we'll up our game for that, but here, here are some of the birthdays being celebrated. we got Frank Wittenauer, Mary Kelly, Michael Cox, Nathan Budziak, Terry Kaler, Stephen branch, Andy Parker, Kyle Pollard, Joey Lee.
Chad (13:24.231)
In the Plums.
Chad (13:35.752)
Yeah? Huh?
Joel (13:51.906)
Michelle Sumrall, Jim D'Amico, Scott Williams, and Julie Loniman. Hope I said all those correctly. Celebrating another trip around the sun. Happy birthday, everybody. And that brings us to.
Chad (14:03.902)
Happy birthday.
Fantasy football from the factory fix
Joel (14:09.646)
Fantasy football by factory fix. That's right. We're, we're heading into week 14. I believe we have two more weeks, I think, till the playoffs start. here's how your leaderboard shakes out. got Dean, the daddy Mac mackerel, the, man from down under showing us how to do it here in, here in the United States. Number two is your boy right here. Stick sticking, sticking with that number two spot. Number three, David Stifle for Chad sew wash clinging onto that final playoff spot for the.
Chad (14:17.62)
Mm.
Chad (14:25.588)
Killing it. Killing it.
Chad (14:31.379)
Mmm.
Joel (14:38.68)
for the championship. Keith, the commissioner's Keith, the commissioner's Sonderling kicked my ass. last week, shout out to him for that. Christie Lisbon, action Jackson, Dalquist, Laura Martinelli, Jennifer, Terry Tharp, Dina, Perot for Pyros, Sean Horton. Here's a who and bring it up, bringing up the caboose. That's right.
Chad (14:40.328)
Not there yet, not there yet.
Joel (15:05.612)
That's right. Adam Gordon, from Scotland at number 12 of 12 players. And that is the factory fixed leaderboard for fantasy football with Chad and cheese starting to wind down. If, if Adam loses, I'm thinking we need to have for the first time the loser gift we got. Can we buy a kilt that says loser on the front of it and have him wear that around Glasgow?
Chad (15:12.423)
Aw, poor guy, poor guy.
Chad (15:21.169)
yeah.
Chad (15:27.65)
Hahaha
Chad (15:33.076)
you know we wouldn't wear it. That wouldn't be cool. That wouldn't be cool.
Joel (15:36.558)
Stephen would wear it, but yeah, it's probably a little bit too.
Chad (15:41.012)
We still have to figure out the Steven tattoo thing. Okay. So let's focus here. Let's priorities. We got to get Steven a tattoo. That's what we got to do.
Joel (15:45.56)
Sorry, sorry, that's right.
good time with the Scots. Good time with the Scots. Let's talk about some news, shall we?
Chad (15:54.312)
Yes. Topics.
Joel (15:59.762)
we got some, yeah, you know, some layoffs that we missed. Layoffs are a good time to have a press release during Thanksgiving. People kind of miss it, but we didn't miss this one. LinkedIn laid off 202 employees over the last two weeks, representing roughly 1 % of the company's 18,000 or so employees. LinkedIn spokesperson, Greg Snappy.
Chad (16:01.972)
Hmm
Chad (16:07.913)
Yeah.
Joel (16:23.81)
That's a cool name. Greg Snappi confirmed. The cuts occurred in engineering and customer support. He said to the information quote, we're among changes within teams to align our organizational structures and work to our strategic priorities and to support our customers. quote. Chad, any thoughts on the recent layoffs at LinkedIn?
Chad (16:24.372)
Heh.
Chad (16:29.716)
Hmm.
Chad (16:46.516)
Nope, just gonna have to keep an eye on this because it could be one of those that just continue to draw out. So you see 1%, 1%, 3%, 5%, you know what I mean? I have to take a look because alignment, yes kids, I'm using air quotes, alignment doesn't happen generally in one cut.
Joel (16:54.819)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (17:04.396)
Yeah. There are two schools of thought on, on layoffs. It's, one you do like a 30 % cut and you're done and you get on with your life. And then there's this slow drip, where you have, have different, I don't know, you drip out, you drip them out. And to me, this was sort of Latin for, we're automating and these are folks that we don't need, but we're not going to cut them all at once. And those are customer service and engineering. And when you hear Amazon talking about, need fewer engineers.
Chad (17:10.772)
You
Hmm.
Joel (17:34.03)
And when you talk about Klarna eliminating customer service, I'm sure Microsoft got on the phone and said, Hey LinkedIn, let's eliminate some of these positions. Don't do enough to scare everybody, but just do enough to make us feel better about the future. So yeah, I'd say let's, let's keep an on this. was shocked. It wasn't more in terms of the percentage, but Hey, that's, that's easy for me to say the 202 people that lost their job. It's a pretty big deal to them. So if you need
Chad (17:34.356)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (17:52.804)
Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Chad (17:59.932)
It is. It is.
Joel (18:01.166)
If you need some good engineers and customer support people, LinkedIn, just put a few in the pond, everybody.
Joel (18:13.098)
All right, Chad, you got you got some gossip for us here. ERE, the OG of conferences, they've been around since 1998. You got word that they might be might be sunsetting SourceCon, one of their fabled conferences. What did you hear from the grapevine?
Chad (18:17.908)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (18:24.169)
Jeez.
Chad (18:28.403)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (18:34.302)
Well, let's say we'll get to that in a second. I want to get a little nostalgic first because remember when ERE was one of the must attend conferences in our space. mean, everyone used ERE networking tools. They read their articles, they commented on the articles, they shared the articles, attended. Everybody attended the webinars. mean, ERE was the place for TA professionals to attend events and get their daily dose of HR and recruiting news and gossip.
Joel (18:38.254)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (18:43.47)
Yeah.
Chad (19:02.416)
ERE was a central part of the recruitment industry. What happened? Before we get into the SourceCon stuff, what the hell happened?
Joel (19:13.966)
so full disclosure, I used to write for ERE as a contract, publisher. I've known Dave. mean, you and I both went to these early conferences. I mean, I started going in around 2005. The timing of it, was really good. mean, they were willing to embrace bloggers and video stuff. They, sort of like where Sherm said no, ERE said yes. And the, it, the it crowd came to ERE. They had a blogger.
Chad (19:22.994)
He's a guy. Yeah.
Chad (19:31.582)
Yeah.
Joel (19:42.668)
You know, reset or like area with beanbags and shit. So it was just, it was just the thing. I guess this would be like a fourth iteration of the conference. Dave left, didn't leave, but he, sort of passed the reins, handed the reins over to someone else and around the great recession time who turned it into sort of an executive, event where they said,
Chad (19:46.046)
Yeah.
Joel (20:08.524)
no more bloggers, no more part, like no more fun. Like we're going to be a real serious event and have executives and we're, we're going to make more money in the process. And maybe they did, maybe they didn't, Dave came back and then revived it sort of to it's, it's tried to get back to where it was. they bought source con, they bought TLNT, they bought,
Chad (20:30.356)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (20:31.5)
Not level 42. That's the band from the, from the eighties, but they bought, they, they acquired some folks, the candies they just acquired. So they've, they've been smart about, acquisitions. What happened? I don't know. I mean, they're working at so many things, right? Like their blogging plat, their articles primarily, and it's a world of podcasts and video and shorts. they've, they've sort of.
Chad (20:33.684)
Ha!
Chad (20:58.504)
That surprised me that they didn't go down that road faster. I mean, because it's content, right? mean, content's content. So it really surprised me they didn't go down that road faster.
Joel (21:02.018)
Yeah, I mean.
Joel (21:07.554)
Yeah, the content. mean, they've never really sort of re-engaged with the thought leaders or the people that are going to be doing videos from the shows and everything. They just kind of lost the mojo. The kids moved to Unleashed, they moved to RecFest, they've just sort of moved. And I think that ERE is kind of the cockroach of the recruiting conferences. And what I mean by that is like they survive.
Chad (21:14.131)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (21:25.353)
Mm.
Joel (21:36.354)
Dave I've known for a long time. He's a smart guy. He's, he's an old TMP guy, from the nineties and monster. mean, again, this thing launched in 98, he bootstrapped the whole thing, took it like zero one, you know, one to 15 employees. he's been able to adapt to this stuff and survive. I reached out to him to task what was going on. he said quote about some of the rumors you were hearing and particularly about source con,
Chad (21:45.908)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (22:02.868)
God.
Joel (22:05.486)
which I don't know if you want to get to now or cause you, you were asking what happened to ERE, but, so the rumor is SourceCon is going to be sunset. I said, Dave, what's up? He said, quote, those rumors are incorrect. And while we were making some big changes to SourceCon next year, it is an evolution that is necessary because the role of sourcing and TA is rapidly changing. I'm excited about where we are headed as a business. He also said, quote, we're going to be issuing a press release in a few days about what's going on.
Chad (22:07.368)
Go ahead, yeah, hit it. Yeah.
Joel (22:34.518)
with SourceCon. Look, sourcing is not what it was when he bought SourceCon. It's automated. I mean, it's just a different animal. And I've got to think that that conference, the numbers going to that conference have shrunk significantly in the last, since COVID. Okay.
Chad (22:42.75)
Yes.
Chad (22:48.692)
I have more on that. I have more on that. So first and foremost, the blog post October 6th, 2009 is when the acquisition, at least the announcement of the acquisition happened. That was 15 years ago. And we are now receiving reports that the last SourceCon event struggled to get 100 attendees, where in the past they got an upwards to 800. So is sourcing changing? Yes. Has it always changed? Yes. Sourcing was a different animal pre-internet.
Resume databases change sourcing. Then search engines change sourcing. LinkedIn changed sourcing. Sourcing continued to evolve, but does this next evolution of sourcing involve humans? It feels like David Manster believes humans are going to be weeded out of the sourcing side of the house and you can't sell tickets to robots, right? So sourcing was a full-time job when you had to dig into file cabinets.
It became even easier when you could access the goldmine of candidates on the internet, resume databases, niche communities, that kind of thing. But now tech is making that full-time job a split second task. Tech can source and match a database of millions of candidates in seconds. So instead of having to dig into that filing cabinet full of resumes or build a Boolean string for purple squirrels, the algos are prompt engineered.
and perform that once full-time job in seconds. So is this an evolution? At first I was like, it is dying, but yeah, I mean, I think it is an evolution and you're seeing big numbers go to much smaller numbers. Again, something that used to be a product right now is turning into a feature.
Joel (24:16.878)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (24:34.358)
Yeah. And, and fewer companies that are selling it. Right. mean, in the, in hay day of source con, the exhibit hall was full of people that we have more profiles, we have better search, we have integrations as such. Like we've talked in Nausim about the companies like higher tool and higher, like that have either pivoted totally or gone out of business. And those are all sourcing tools. So the, the people that could carry the, know, that could fund these things.
is down significantly in addition to people that would actually go to learn sourcing. Sourcing used to be, know, Shallie talking about how to use AltaVista to find people in a haystack or how to like, how to like scrape a company's about us page to get people that are executives there. And that's all gone. So, and, and by the way, like when someone like Adam Posner, the POScast that we know well, when, he goes on LinkedIn and says 80 % of recruiters are going to be gone in five years.
Chad (25:12.02)
Yeah.
Joel (25:31.746)
I don't know if he's right, but if it's half that, that's a big cut into attendees in these conferences and companies that are selling to them. So, I mean, I suspect all conferences either have a really great niche like rec fest has a, it's a party, right? It's just a good time. it's relatively, they don't, they don't want to be too huge. They're like a really good size, but yeah, if you're, if you're not intriguing, engaging, doing something different,
people have limited budgets. have limited conferences that they can attend. They're going to go to the one that is the most fun, where the most heat is and where the most energy is. And right now that's, that's the challenge that Dave Dave has with his conference is how do you make it something that is a must go to event? Cause they haven't done that in a while. Yeah. Good luck. I'm a fan. like Dave, ERE you, you and I are old timers. Remember the glory days of all that. Yeah. Or
Chad (26:06.504)
Yep, where they learn the most.
Chad (26:15.688)
Good luck, buddy. Good luck. No, they have not.
Chad (26:23.614)
Been a long time since I've been to an ERE though. It's been a very long time.
Joel (26:27.446)
or invited. I've, I can't remember last time is like, we want you guys, we want who, who do we need to get? Who's, who's the list? Who's the list? So anyway, rippling and deal. Yes. This is where the heat is. so, next up a news. Don't buy snake oil, says a new landing page at rippling.com calling out competitor deal. It goes on to say, quote,
Chad (26:29.874)
Either way.
Chad (26:36.69)
Yeah. The list is rippling in deal. That's the list.
Joel (26:55.874)
deal often claims to be a one-stop solution for all your global payroll needs, but their customers pay the price for gaps beneath the surface. Play this game to find the differences between deals claims and the reality of their product, which leads you to a game where you create a snake. didn't even, I didn't totally understand it. but you create a snake and you point out lies or fabrications. so anyway, Rippling says, Hey, tired of playing games.
Chad (27:05.406)
Hmm.
Chad (27:22.13)
You eat the lies, yeah.
Joel (27:25.198)
get a demo of our product, Sea Rippling in action. Chad, the Trumpification of our business is happening. This used to be out of bounds calling out competitors like this. But what are your thoughts on the growing Rippling deal? I don't know. What are we gonna call it? Battle? Scuffle? Yeah, sure.
Chad (27:44.344)
scuffle. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting because rippling has about 2 billion in funding and deal has 679 million. Yes, the difference rippling 2 billion but but with a B and deal 679 million that still a lot of money no matter what right. But reports and we actually have have
heard reports, and Deal has said that they are at about 600 million ARR. And the estimate for Rippling is 350 ARR. So you've got a company who has maybe got about a quarter the amount of funding that you do. And they're outperforming you, right? You are a challenger brand when you should be, because you have a bigger war chest, you should be the big brand.
So usually the challenger brand is the one who does this kind of stuff. And we've seen this in the past where not in our space, but Pepsi called out Coke for the Pepsi challenge, the taste test, right? And that's how you try to elevate your brand to that leader, that leader's brand, right? We're better than they are. Here, take a test. In this case, I mean, these guys, Rippling, the company with two billion in funding attacking deal,
which should make everybody think obviously that deal is the Coca-Cola in this, in this conversation. mean, hell, Rippling's chief revenue officer posted the drama on LinkedIn. Again, wanting to make this stunt receive more awareness, more public awareness, but also by sharing the head of American sales from deals comments that they actually had in the chat that said, a dick.
yes, it was unnecessary. was, it was, it was, it was stupid. It was stupid. And yes, the, the, when you're the number one on the top of the mountain, you don't, you know, you don't have to turn around and tell them to eat a Dick. They're already doing it because you're beating their ass. So just a little leadership and, and, and marketing, recommendations are kid, but let's be clear. I mean, both companies are doing incredibly well financially.
Joel (29:36.844)
It was an icon penis. It was an icon penis, by the way.
Joel (29:50.03)
Yeah.
Chad (30:02.846)
But from the outside looking in, if Rippling is pulling these kinds of stunts and expending resources, specifically attacking Deal, Deal looks like the big dog, the market leader, while Rippling is using their own brain power and tech resources to recreate a horrible 1980 style game. To me, it fell flat on the Rippling side and it just made Deal look better.
Joel (30:27.179)
huh.
Chad (30:29.488)
If the dude hadn't done the eat a dick comment, I think they would have definitely came out on top with nothing to talk about, but you know, things happen, humans happen.
Joel (30:42.37)
Yeah. So I reached out to Elizabeth Diana. That is her real name. Communications at deal. And she said, she said, quote, we're just focused on building for our customers and not on unnecessary noise. End quotes. think that was a pretty, pretty prescient comment. Yeah. No, there was not a.
Chad (30:46.674)
Okay.
Chad (30:58.676)
Under that was it eat a dick, Diana? Instead of sincerely Diana, was eat a dick, cheeseman, Diana.
Joel (31:07.746)
huh. Yeah. Yeah. No, I forget what my gift gift reply was, but I don't think it was, it was that like you say Coke and Pepsi. My, my analogy was, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones, while you had the Beatles making great records, not really talking shit. mean, John Lennon talks of shit, but like you had a band that was just creating great records. Then you had the stones, which is sort of dangerous. You know, the kids that were naughty, like they had a separate brand. And to me, this feels like.
Chad (31:15.412)
Ha
Joel (31:37.858)
You know, if you're, if you're the clean kid, it's deals may be your thing, but if you want to live a little faster, if you want to like come hang with the cool kids, we got the games and the funny stuff and that I like come, come over to rippling. you're right. mean, deal deal we've talked in like many times they're all cylinders. They make great acquisitions. They're, profits are, are doing very well. mean, both these companies will probably go public at some point.
And then we'll really know exactly what's under the hood. but until then, Rippling has to make noise. They have to like make waves. They have to get attention. I mean, we're talking about it. that's what they need to do. But their founder, Conrad Parker or Parker Conrad, sorry, is a jackass. his, his LinkedIn profile literally says customer support. he's just, he's just a jackass. He's in sort of the mold of Elon and some of the other.
Chad (32:22.014)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (32:34.528)
CEOs that we talk about, but for some people that's hip and some people that's a buying decision. He fucked up Zenefits. Is this the early stages of him fucking up Rippling? I don't know. It's not a good look. It's a bad look from where I sit and I don't see corporate America embracing this stupidity.
Chad (32:36.105)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (32:41.641)
Yes.
Chad (32:55.292)
Know your audience, kids. Know your audience.
Joel (32:59.214)
know your audience. And speaking of audience, we're gonna take a quick break. Listen to the sponsors, kids, because there is no show. There is no show without the sponsors.
Chad (33:14.206)
Holy shit.
Joel (33:14.222)
All right, Chad, take two of these and call me in the morning. A new study published in the journal of the American medical association or JAMA as the cool kids call it demonstrates, first time we brought up the journal of the American medical association on the show, demonstrates the potential value of LLMs in clinical diagnoses from the study. The LLM alone demonstrated higher performance than both physician groups indicating
Chad (33:26.494)
Jam-o, baby.
Joel (33:43.874)
the need for technology and workforce development to realize the potential of physician, artificial intelligence, collaboration, and clinical practice. In short, the bots outperformed the humans. Chad, this one really caught your attention. What are your thoughts?
Chad (33:53.086)
Mm.
Chad (34:00.754)
It's not only that the bots outperform the humans, but the humans who were equipped with the bots didn't use the fucking bots. So control group number one was the LLM group. They were the they were the physicians who had the large language model. They scored a median of 60 or 76 percent, 76 percent. The conventional ones, the ones who just continue to do business like they always do. 74 percent. So it wasn't that big of a deal. The large language model by itself.
scored 92%. So if group number one actually trusted the large language model, they would have scored significantly higher, but the humans didn't trust the tech. if an LLM has 92 % accuracy rate diagnosing patients, who out there still believes that an LLM can't source screen and schedule interviews for open recs? mean, how many times could companies, how much time could companies save?
in the hiring process if you allow the tech to just do those three simple tasks, source, screen, schedule. Another Harvard working study entitled Navigating the Jagged Technological Frontier showed that consultants using GPT-4 completed 12 % more tasks, 25 % faster, and produced outputs 40 % higher in quality compared to those not using the AI assistant. So
If you're still out there in Chad and cheese podcast listening land and you are still in denial, this is when I got to ask you to do go to the sessions.ai. Okay. That's where we actually sat down with Eileen Kowalski from GM and she talks about how they are already doing this and it's working. Right. So we can't be in denial anymore. And the thing that really gets me here is these are physicians, healthcare.
Joel (35:57.678)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (35:57.842)
We could do so much with this. Imagine what we could do also on the recruiting side. You gotta trust it. You gotta trust it.
Joel (36:07.746)
Yeah, these guys went to these guys and gals went to school longer for longer periods than the most recruiters that I know and still get it wrong. Look, there's some there's some jobs that I can't imagine being fully automated. One is doctor. One is pilot and dentist like anything that like and maybe stripper that that shouldn't ever be automated. So you're right. If if we get to a point in humanity and society where we say, you know what?
Chad (36:23.965)
Nah. Yeah.
Chad (36:28.68)
Talk about OnlyFans later.
Joel (36:35.276)
I got a little ache. want the X-ray. Tell me what the robots say I have. And that's more trusted than what the doctor looking at it says. Certainly the doctors that augment, are going to be probably the most successful, but you gotta trust the debt. gotta trust the robots, right? It sounds like there's a, there's a God complex with doctors, which is not surprising where they say I'm smarter than a robot. and these, this, this data says, no, not, not exactly. so do doctors get to a point where they trust the data and then just,
Chad (36:54.236)
Of course. Yeah.
Joel (37:04.952)
follow suit with the, with the patient. don't know. But yes, if we can get to a point where that stuff, and I've been in a Waymo, I'm totally cool with no taxis, drivers, the actual people, like let me get in a car and go where I want to go. recruiting is screwed, long-term because back to the ERE thing and back to the positive, like if 80 % are gone because of this stuff, like that makes it really hard to have a conference. makes it really hard to have products and services beyond a few.
Chad (37:21.492)
Hahaha
Joel (37:34.016)
And it kind of makes it hard to do a podcast because robots don't listen to podcasts from what I know. But our listener numbers say people want to know what's going on. What is AI going to like, how do I adapt? How do I learn how to like survive in this world? Maybe that's part of the reason why we're getting a lot of increases in listenership, but you're right. If, if healthcare goes down the road of like, let, let the robots know, what we're doing in 60 minutes had a great story about people that are in.
training robots and what cancer looks like and and a, you know, a, a picture and what like certain things. So like, this is where we're going. I think it's, it's for the best. If we can get healthcare quick and easy based on whatever, and the robots could tell us, the OMS can tell us like, I think that's a good world, but it's going to scare a lot of people for sure.
Chad (38:23.112)
It will, it will.
Joel (38:26.25)
It will scare a few people. Almost as scary as what Walmart did this week. Walmart has announced changes to its diversity, equity and inclusion policies, continuing a trend among US companies that we've talked about quite a bit on the show. This decision comes amidst legal victories against DEI programs by conservative groups.
And a broader corporate retreat from DEI initiatives, including companies like Boeing, Ford, Harley Davidson, et cetera. Walmart shift includes moving away from the term DEI to quote belonging, reflecting a strategic adjustment in response to legal, political, and social dynamics. Chad, I'm guessing you have a few thoughts on this move by Walmart.
Chad (39:14.772)
I do, but I'm actually going to talk about an expert in this space and her thoughts, because she actually wrote about it last week, and that's my wife, Julie Sowell. She wrote an article called Walmart from Rooster to Chicken. And here's an excerpt. So quote, let's be real. Walmart isn't as clueless as their public statement would suggest. They aren't bowing to public pressure because they care about the public's opinion. If they did,
Joel (39:23.907)
Yep.
Chad (39:42.816)
They would then know that most Americans support DEI efforts and prefer to spend money with companies that promote diversity. No, Walmart's retreat isn't about responding to the public. It's about a business decision to scale back on DEI and in anticipation of less enforcement of affirmative action under the incoming administration. They've used the classic excuse of, quote unquote, responsiveness to backtrack on something that
they never really believed in. It's all about cutting operational costs so they can fatten up their shareholders' pockets in the next quarter, as you can see in their Q3 earnings report. Classic, classic chicken move, end quote. And she's 100 % right. I I couldn't have written it any better. Whenever, wherever companies believe they can cut corners and throw money back into the bottom line, they're going to do it. And if companies believe they could
not be held accountable for workplace fairness and equity, they're going to cut all control measures. And that's what's happening right now. So it's going to be interesting to see how companies actually rein in to ensure that there is fairness and there is equity, because that's how people stay longer without really putting a quote unquote program in a box called DEI. So will Walmart do it or will they just let everything flow to the wind? I guess we'll find out.
Joel (41:10.092)
Yeah. The answer to all your questions, my son is money. and Julie obviously hit, that one, that nail on the head. what really surprises me about this is Walmart's for everybody. I mean, I like if Harley Davidson says, fuck DI, I mean, it's, it's a tough machismo business. Like most of their buyers give a shit, but everyone shops at Walmart. like it's for everybody and why there isn't what I find interesting.
Chad (41:18.355)
Yeah.
Chad (41:23.764)
Yeah.
Joel (41:39.982)
is there's no voice, there's no voice or entity saying don't shop at Walmart because they don't embrace DI. However, there is a really loud voice, on the other side saying this company embraces DI don't shop there boycott this company service, cetera. And there's a guy named Robbie Starbuck. I don't know if this name rings a bell to you, but he has a huge social media presence and his sole existence is
Chad (42:04.788)
Uh-uh.
Joel (42:09.72)
calling out companies, ask, you know, tell talking about boycotts, et cetera. And, if, if you're not familiar with them, this is a Bloomberg story. a Bloomberg tech talk, a reporter that has covered this story and has some really cool insight. want to play that for the, for the audience and for you.
Chad (42:15.273)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (44:20.206)
Fear, fear. This is gonna be a 2025 narrative. Business is getting on Trump's good side and he's really good about striking fear, tariffs, merchandise more expensive. What scares Walmart to death is if they can no longer be the lowest cost provider for goods and services. And they wanna not be on.
Chad (44:21.812)
Yeah.
Chad (44:33.748)
2025, 2026, 2027, yes.
Joel (44:47.214)
Trump's target list, tariff list. Like Apple did a great job of getting iPhones out of the China tariffs. Like they got a pass because Tim Cook played really nice with Donald Trump. And I think a lot of businesses that get stuff from China are going to bow down to Trump. And this is going to be a story for the next four years.
Chad (45:09.502)
Kiss the ring and fill the Bermuda bank accounts.
Joel (45:13.71)
It'd be nice if there was an opposite of Starbucks on the other side, but there really isn't, unfortunately. All right, let's take a quick break and OnlyFans, we haven't talked about that in a while.
Joel (45:32.206)
All right, Chad, it may be, it may be about time for us to announce our only fans page based on some of the numbers that are coming out on this stuff. Sophie rain, a top content creator on only fans has revealed her earnings for one year on the platform. You ready for this? one year, 43,477,695 and one cent. thought the one cent was fun. if she went to Hollywood.
The only three actors who could currently boast having a bigger bank account increase than her would be Tom Cruise, Margot Robbie, and Adam Sandler. OnlyFans is getting out of control. Chad, what are your thoughts on Sophie Raine's $43 million year?
Chad (46:19.054)
I think she's just one of many that we've talked about already. Yes, there are porn stars that are making money on OnlyFans, but we've also talked about teachers and nurses leaving their jobs and making mad cash on OnlyFans. The growth of this platform is mind blowing. And according to Variety, OnlyFans has record revenues and profits in 2023 fiscal year with a total of 6.63 bub-bub-billion in payments.
made during that time with a total of 4.12 million content creators. Over 4 million content creators and the average payout to OnlyFans creators is about $1,300 a year. yes, if you want to be a part of that crazy 4 million with some kind of fetish that you want to do, that's entirely up to you. But you keep me out of it, Cheeseman. You keep me out of it.
Joel (46:57.87)
Yeah.
Joel (47:14.938)
I want to highlight what you said there. The average income for a creator is $1,300 a year. So by and large, there's a million, about 1.4 million Americans on the platform. so it's not a sure thing that you're going to get rich off of being a creator and only fans, because if 1300 is the average, there are people making $2. I mean, there are like, there's like a really low end.
Chad (47:24.777)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (47:45.326)
You know, I guess that nose hair, fetish that knows our fetish isn't catching on. like I thought it would, it's funny. I dug into this a little bit. there are some other stars, porn stars, creators that are calling her like calling bullshit on some of this. apparently she says one fan tipped her $4 million. does that pass the sniff test? I don't know. $4 million for a tip, for being on video. they, they,
There's also like a big uproar right now about how OnlyFans is fucking with the porn industry. The porn industry is in trouble because of OnlyFans. Sure. You know, as far as I can tell, Pornhub is doing just fine with views and money. Yeah.
Chad (48:30.044)
It shouldn't be a problem. can move. They can move over to another storefront. mean, it's yeah, it's just weird. It's you got, you got to go to where the people are at, right? We went to Google. Now we're going to tick tock and we're going to, you know, we're going to chat GPT. mean, things evolve.
Joel (48:35.286)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (48:40.387)
Yeah.
Joel (48:47.342)
Yeah, you know, to me, it's, it's just for people, for you and I in a generation who saw their first boob in a Playboy more than likely, like the world that we live in now is so surreal to me. And it's sort of, it's a little bit sad that there's so many, like you can get this stuff for free, but people are paying whatever to see this shit. Anyway, it's, it's a
Chad (48:57.948)
Mm, yeah.
Chad (49:03.848)
Rest.
Chad (49:13.044)
And that $4 million tip, who knows what other deliverables outside of just the OnlyFans stream, right? You never, I mean, you just never know.
Joel (49:17.516)
Well, yeah, I that's true. It could.
Joel (49:23.146)
It could be a backdoor to prostitution. I did. said back. Yeah. I, I, yeah. I said back door everybody.
Chad (49:27.024)
Or who knows? Who knows?
Chad (49:32.66)
Ha!
Joel (49:35.38)
All right, Chad, until we have the AI look like real people, I guess OnlyFans will continue to hit the ball out of the park. Which brings us to our dad joke of the week. Are you ready? Are you ready for the dad joke of the week?
Chad (49:36.712)
Yes.
Chad (49:47.602)
Hmm, as ready as I can be.
Joel (49:55.798)
What would the Terminator be called in retirement? What would the Terminator be called in retirement? I'll be back. would the Terminator be called in retirement, Chad?
Chad (50:08.742)
I don't know. Shit. The extra-
Joel (50:09.548)
The Exterminator. Get it? The Exterminator.
Chad (50:15.188)
That's bad. That one is bad. We out.
Joel (50:15.839)
We out.
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