Rippling Raises While Deel Staff Exits
- Chad Sowash
- 7 hours ago
- 42 min read
This week on HR’s most dangerous podcast, things get wild. We're diving headfirst into the espionage-soaked saga between Rippling and Deel — corporate sabotage, shredded iPhones, axe-smashing, and a resignation with Meta-level baggage. It's the kind of plot twist even Netflix couldn’t dream up.
But wait, there's more
China and Dave Chappelle's next-level trolling of American manufacturing dreams.
Hilarious and horrifying North Korean IT infiltrations at Fortune 500 companies?
(💥 That’s right — the hackers are already inside the house.💥)
A 23-year-old CEO and AI startup Artisan get $25 million
...and Shopify creates a world where your job has to beat the bots to survive.
If you're in HR, tech, or just love a good spy thriller with a side of corporate chaos — this one’s for you. Get ready to rethink remote hiring, laugh nervously, and maybe double-check your VPN.
Listen now. Before your office gets Pyong-yanged.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Chad (00:39.095)
yeah. You put your tariff in, you pull your tariff out, you put your tariff in and you shake it all about. Welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Chad tariff, hokey pokey. Sowash.
J.T. O'Donnell (00:52.241)
I'm JT, Thursday is the new Friday, O'Donnell.
Chad (00:54.747)
Ha
Maureen Clough (00:55.664)
And I'm Maureen, AKA Moe, where's my cabin, Wiley Clough.
Chad (01:01.862)
Where's my cabin. We'll get to that.
Maureen Clough (01:03.92)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (01:09.024)
Where's my cabin that sounds like, it sounds like a movie reference. What's going on here? wait a minute, no I can tell by your background. You're, you're, you were in a cabin before. Tell us a little bit about that.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:12.633)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (01:13.435)
Mmm
I'm home. I was, I just feel like as much as humanly possible, I wanna be as far away from other humans as possible. So that's it. Yeah, I wanna touch grass. No, I love, you guys are the best, but we always do this remotely anyway. So I could be doing this on the moon. So, but yeah, you know, just touching some grass these days, getting grounded. That's what I'm looking for. So.
Chad (01:28.182)
Should we take that personal? Should we take that personal JT?
Chad (01:35.462)
Yeah, that's a point. Yeah, that's a point. Yeah.
Chad (01:43.286)
I it. Touching some grass. Touching some grass. So, I guess, you the big question is are we sick of tariff shit?
Maureen Clough (01:45.102)
Mm-hmm, we all gotta touch some grass,
Maureen Clough (01:52.796)
Terrified. Yep. I did not actually, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's come up with that one. Although I like to think it's the Maureen Wiley-Cleff original, but no, doubtful, doubtful.
J.T. O'Donnell (01:53.414)
Yeah.
Chad (01:54.726)
Terrified. That was good. Did you use that one before?
Chad (02:02.554)
terrified.
So did we ever think in our lifetime that we would be this focused on blanket tariffs? I thought like, you know, that was something that we talked about in the, in the past, you know, like the 1800s, 1900s, but did we ever think that we were going to be talking about this?
J.T. O'Donnell (02:15.535)
No.
Maureen Clough (02:18.716)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:24.409)
No, and can I just say that I've somehow gotten on the side of tariff talk. So my feed is blowing up with people who want to give you the detailed explanation right down to the guy that held my attention yesterday for over four minutes with Lego figures. Like he made Lego figures to explain scenarios to help people understand. mean, he was really going for the fifth grade audience and I was there for it. So it's insane. It's like it's everywhere. I can't get away from it.
Maureen Clough (02:24.601)
Everything old is new again.
Hehehehehe
Chad (02:33.229)
my god.
Chad (02:38.998)
that's... I like that.
Maureen Clough (02:39.438)
Chad (02:46.554)
Yeah, I mean.
Maureen Clough (02:46.8)
Hey, I'd love that video. Please send it to me.
Chad (02:53.166)
It is, it is. I mean, unfortunately, you know, damage is kind of done by now. We've got, you know, the whack job of Howard Lutnick making a statement about millions of Americans screwing in tiny little iPhone screws and they're going to bring back manufacturing to the US. Then China. This is, God, I hate to say this. This is fucking hilarious. China's trolling us, kids.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:58.737)
Thanks.
Maureen Clough (02:59.255)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Chad (03:18.244)
China's controlling us and I'm gonna show you why. if you're listening to the podcast, you can always come back, go to YouTube and actually watch this, but you've got to see this video. Here we go.
So this is what bringing back manufacturing looks like in China's trolling eyes. We've got some big Americans on sewing machines. I mean, come on.
Maureen Clough (03:49.766)
Yeah, they're getting us good here.
Chad (03:50.726)
Screwing in iPhone. Make America great again.
Maureen Clough (03:56.764)
Pretty good trolling, A plus trolling.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:57.19)
Yeah.
Chad (03:58.736)
But now, on the back of that, I do have an American who has an opinion as well, and I think this, this coupled together, I think is important. So let's watch this.
Maureen Clough (04:32.346)
my gosh.
Maureen Clough (04:38.14)
None of us want to work that hard.
Chad (04:38.383)
J.T. O'Donnell (04:42.863)
It's crazy. It's crazy. know. And I read an article yesterday, a couple was in Canada on a trip and they got on a gondola or a ski trip. And this Canadian couple, the wife just started railing on them about being American. while they were in Canada, they better buy Canadian and all this stuff. And finally the husband that kind of calmed her down, the Canadian husband, they got off and she said, you know,
should really go down this trail, like trying to be a nice person. It was the worst trail they'd ever been on. They barely made it down the hill alive. I think she's really angry with us. So I don't know. I mean, you're going to be traveling soon, Chad. Who knows how people are going to feel.
Maureen Clough (05:17.468)
You got to throw that Canadian flag logo on your backpack or something. Throw them off.
Chad (05:17.775)
Yeah.
Chad (05:22.33)
Yeah. Well, where, where we have a place, there are more Canadians because apparently, Europeans wanted to keep it a secret from us dumb Americans. And I don't blame them to be quite frank, but the thing I have noticed because we've had the place for a few years now is that we were literally like the only American in this little village that we have right off, right on the ocean. And, now I go and I'm noticing more and more and more.
Americans. And it's like, you hear through the news, a lot of people are like, fuck this, I'm out. And then people are like, I thought you said you were out. Why are you still here in the US? And it's like, no, they're coming now. Stop it. Stop it.
Maureen Clough (06:05.82)
Chad, you're a trendsetter. I think a lot of people are going to be following in your footsteps for sure. Yeah.
Chad (06:11.863)
Yeah, I think my wife's the trendsetter. My wife's the trendsetter.
Maureen Clough (06:15.564)
out while she's a smart one. She's a smart one. And please hook us all up when the time comes. Yeah. We'll do.
Chad (06:19.27)
Duh.
Come and visit, come and visit. All right, let's go ahead. Let's jump into,
Yep. Who wants to go first? it you, you Mo? You want to hit it? Okay.
Maureen Clough (06:31.856)
I'll go, you know, being a fan of jumping on the bandwagon for trends, I went ahead and did what literally everyone on planet Earth is doing according to LinkedIn, my LinkedIn feed, which is pump some prompt into chat GPT to see what kind of action figure it's gonna pop out based on what it knows about you. You guys, this is mine. So I'm gonna go ahead and tell you that I think it hallucinated, it hallucinated a little bit on this one.
Chad (06:48.41)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:51.473)
You
Chad (06:53.508)
I, you shaved today. That's, that's awesome.
Maureen Clough (07:00.63)
I would like to also point out, not only am I not a male, I do not play video games. I know almost nothing about video games. Mad respect to people.
Chad (07:06.752)
you're not a gamer.
Chad (07:11.59)
So listener there's there's there's an Xbox controller There's a book that says the journey it says writer and you do some writing right? Yeah, okay Then there's a 20-sided die and then a robot underneath it now the 20-sided die is Mainly a Dungeons and Dragons thing. So is that are you a Dungeons and Dragons girl?
Maureen Clough (07:16.816)
Yeah, thank you. Good point.
Maureen Clough (07:21.468)
I do, I do, Bit of writing.
Maureen Clough (07:31.216)
which is amazing. No, I've never played. I don't even know the concepts within. And by the way, like to call the book that I'm allegedly writing, The Journey, is such an insult to me because I cannot stand when people use the phrase, The Journey. Like it kills me. So chat GPT, Chad GPT, Chaddy GPT, whatever we want to call you. You got some work to do. Please don't hallucinate this hard. Like this isn't a front to me. Yeah, like did someone like, right?
J.T. O'Donnell (07:53.553)
think someone hijacked it. I think someone hijacked your chat GPT and like fed it some stuff beforehand because whoa, that's a mismatch.
Maureen Clough (08:01.464)
I was like, this makes zero sense on any level, but anyway. Yeah, you should. Let me know, I'll send you the prompt.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:05.362)
But I now want to try it, so you're going to send me the prompt. Yeah, I know.
Chad (08:08.582)
Oh, no, I will send you the prompt because mine actually looks like me. She did. I'll send.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:12.963)
Okay. I thought there was like a prompt going on that everyone was using that was the same. No, everyone's just prompted. it. All right.
Chad (08:17.606)
Yeah, but I mean, the thing is it's all about prompt engineering. It's about continuing to add to it so it actually comes closer. So hers is probably version one and mine's like 25. I don't know. She got on the bandwagon very early. Let's say that. All right. My shout out goes to Colossal Biosciences. You might've heard of these guys lately because they're the ones who brought back the dire wolf. The dire wolf has been extinct.
Maureen Clough (08:19.088)
thought there was.
Maureen Clough (08:23.462)
See? I don't know.
Mmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (08:30.81)
love that.
Maureen Clough (08:31.248)
Hahaha!
Maureen Clough (08:44.988)
The what?
Chad (08:46.854)
extinct for 12,500 years. Watch this. Wait, we're Jurassic Park times kids. Watch this.
Maureen Clough (09:05.372)
It's cute.
Chad (09:09.076)
they're here.
Chad (09:28.826)
wooly mammoth.
Maureen Clough (09:28.86)
Bring it back. Bring back jobs to the US. Bring back William &
Chad (09:33.264)
Yes. dude, dude. So, I mean, this is how Jurassic parks started, but I mean, AI is going to kill us anyway. So I mean, why not bring some cool extinct animals back? mean, so, so as they asked in the video, what's, what extinct animal would you guys bring back?
Maureen Clough (09:36.088)
Wow, that's kind of crazy.
Maureen Clough (09:43.876)
That's true.
Maureen Clough (09:54.864)
I'm going Dino for sure. Like I'm going T-Rex. Mm-hmm, 100.
Chad (09:57.882)
T-Rex, a little Allosaurus or T-Rex, one of those big ones. What about you, JT?
J.T. O'Donnell (10:02.726)
Just no, no, I vote no. Thanks, Stupor, no.
Chad (10:06.95)
Too late! Too late! We've got a dire wolf. The toothpaste is out of the tube. It's gonna happen. Do you want a saber-tooth tiger? Raptor? Do you want a dodo bird? I mean, come on. What do want, JT?
Maureen Clough (10:18.012)
those are cute.
J.T. O'Donnell (10:19.025)
Everything that died was like killer. It was going to take us out. I just, in the words of White Lotus, no, Piper, no. Buddhism, no. I'm sorry. You're not getting one out of me.
Chad (10:23.954)
Dodo. think it... I think it... I think it...
Maureen Clough (10:24.316)
Go out with a bang.
Ugh. That was good, JT. I'm impressed.
Chad (10:40.067)
You
Maureen Clough (10:42.204)
Things are getting weird out there, man.
Chad (10:43.694)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, I'm going, I'm going with the saber tooth tiger to be quite frank. Like I said, I think we're, we're in the days of idiocracy and we're going to be putting rondo on the, on the lawn soon. So yeah, let's just go ahead. We'll, do that. JT, what you got?
Maureen Clough (10:48.87)
Hmm. It's very solid.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:00.48)
my goodness. All right. So my shout out is a little different. Jorge Bastard posted that he runs for EMEA, vice president of sales for EMEA for Canva. That every quarter he now institutes this first week of the month of that quarter is this time where they just regroup and rest and just take time, which is so counterintuitive to a hustle culture, especially as sales hustle culture, right? Delivery.
Chad (11:12.71)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (11:28.816)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:28.943)
You've just come off a quarter and he got it. He was inspired by somebody in the health space who said, you know, you need to recalibrate. So they clear out the meetings, they review, they work on strategy. No one's pushing to make calls, appointments, et cetera, for one week. And it's all about mental and physical wellness. What I like about it is the fact that right now I'm seeing and hearing a lot of, you know, managers be like, okay, it's our time again, right? People are lucky to have a job. I saw a whole diatribe about like, why don't people have hustle anymore?
Chad (11:42.79)
Go ahead and connect to him too.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:58.14)
You know, it's time to bring hustle back. And I just thought it was nice that he was like, no, I get it. My people are hustling. And so they need a week to recoup, you know, and I'm going to work it into their, to the actual business, you know, and not make them take their own sales, their own vacation time. So shout out. think that's well played.
Maureen Clough (11:58.396)
Kids these days.
Chad (12:14.18)
Yeah, very well played. And I mean, when we're in a situation where we're doing the, you know, we're, in chaotic times, kids. Okay. Let's just go ahead and say that. So, you know, especially if you're in management, okay, if you're in management, you know that there's some stress that's happening. Not just with you and your family, but obviously with the, with, with the people that you support, the people, the teams that are out there. So again, one of the things that I've been trying to say more
Maureen Clough (12:14.821)
I agree.
Chad (12:42.454)
is give some grace to yourself, but then also those around you, right? So I think that's the big key. So that's a great shout out, JT. That's a great shout out.
Maureen Clough (12:44.892)
Love that. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (12:48.241)
percent.
J.T. O'Donnell (12:51.665)
Yeah, the cool down week. He called it the cool down week. think it's great. I think it's the way to do it.
Maureen Clough (12:51.846)
He's gonna make more money.
I love that and I bet you the productivity and the employee retention and all that's gonna skyrocket and I hope we get to see some really great results from it that can be then trumpeted around. I because right now I saw an article that came out recently that said that it's costing the economy $766 billion a year because of workplace insolvility rising, meaning people are just being rude, people throwing people under the bus, eye rolling, degrading comments at the office.
Chad (13:01.042)
yeah!
Chad (13:18.406)
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (13:23.268)
And like you said, a lot of that's caused by the stress in these chaotic times and this job insecurity and instability that everyone's feeling all these layoffs, AI coming for your job, et cetera. And so if you're just like freaking nice to people, you can actually change your company's trajectory and the lives of your employees. So you can have a win-win. So I love that that guy is doing that. I hope we can follow up. Maybe we can get him on the show. Who knows?
J.T. O'Donnell (13:34.577)
Hmm.
Chad (13:40.558)
So, so, so the problem is toxic masculinity is making a comeback. That's a problem, right? So when you can actually get other males to get in there and say, first and foremost, it's not right. mean, I don't care what the fucking Manosphere tells you, okay? It's not right. These are, all human beings. We're, we're all created equal, should be paid equal, all that other fun stuff. But I think this is where, this is where we need to step up as leaders.
J.T. O'Donnell (13:40.614)
Right.
J.T. O'Donnell (13:47.643)
Hmm.
Maureen Clough (13:47.887)
It's
Maureen Clough (13:56.187)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Chad (14:10.362)
and actually have the discussions with our teams. It's not right, right? I mean, you have those discussions with your kids and sometimes, unfortunately, the people that work for you act like your kids, right? So you just have to take the time. You do, right?
Maureen Clough (14:13.09)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Maureen Clough (14:18.524)
Okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (14:23.089)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (14:23.26)
We want to give our kids good examples, right? And when our leaders do this kind of stuff, you know, this negative stuff, this toxic stuff, it's not set in the right course for people. And so that drives me crazy that I have to actually tell my kids don't do what that world leader is doing because it's not okay. Kind of a weird moment. Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (14:25.86)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (14:42.49)
Yeah, don't do that. I know he's the leader of the free world. so yeah, but one thing, leader of the free world, no, we're the leader of free stuff here at Chad and Cheese Kids. Always, always, always free stuff from the Chad and Cheese at chadcheese.com slash free. What can I get for free, Chad? So you're love this. First and foremost, t-shirts. Everybody loves t-shirts. They're on...
Maureen Clough (14:48.028)
Details.
Maureen Clough (15:02.852)
You
Chad (15:09.43)
LinkedIn all over the place. They're on the socials all over the place. Everybody gets a Chad and cheese. when they get a chad cheese.com slash free, they post it. Joel sent me this morning. You guys haven't seen it yet. I'm to send it to you. Joel sent me this morning, the new design and you know how we love concert t-shirts, right? So the last one, you know, we have like the guns and roses one before that. It was like ACDC. This new one is fucking kick ass. So I can't wait to be able to do that. who sponsors those shirts? Well, our friends over at
J.T. O'Donnell (15:26.341)
Yes.
Chad (15:38.85)
Aaron app. we also give away two bottles of whiskey a month to one listener. Just one listener. get two bottles. that's from our friends at van hack bourbon barrel aged syrup. Do you get a theme here? Kids? Bourbon, bourbon barrel, age syrup from our friends at key. Yorra who actually sponsor shout outs. Love those guys from up North.
Maureen Clough (15:55.957)
Mm, yes.
Chad (16:03.362)
Craft beer from the data geeks over at Aspen tech labs. And if it is your birthday It's time for a little rum from plum the hard part here is because Joel usually runs the soundboard he has all this shit up and I can't allow a Episode to go by Without a little bit of that. yeah. yeah This is this is for you Joel. We miss you
Maureen Clough (16:28.444)
There we go. There we go.
Chad (16:33.446)
He's spring break in Canada. He's spring break in Canada. Yeah, he's he's well He's at spring spring break in Canada, which means all of his in-laws have been giving him shit all week because of all this tariff stuff so come back and be able to blow out a little bit, but he's traveling to Canada we're going to be headed to unleash in less than a month unleash America in Vegas
Maureen Clough (16:36.54)
Joel's proud, he's proud of you right now, you found it.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:39.782)
Well done.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:45.329)
Right?
Maureen Clough (16:46.198)
yeah, fair.
Maureen Clough (16:51.036)
You
Chad (16:59.19)
We're doing some cool stuff with the team over at GEM. We're going to be in the GEM booth moderating some panel discussions on the 7th and the 8th. And we're also doing some really cool shit with the team over at Smart Recruiters. Going to be recording another sessions season. That's right. We've got two out now. We're starting to drip out season two. We've got three. We've got another one that's in the can and we're getting ready to record season four. This shit is amazing. We're also going to have
Maureen Clough (17:28.412)
tight.
Chad (17:28.856)
A film wrap-up party on the 7th in a suite at the Cosmo. You might be, who knows, you might get a VIP ticket. But what are you guys up to? Are you going back to the cabin anytime soon, Mo? Are you going skiing anytime, JT?
Maureen Clough (17:36.87)
So much FOMO. It's awesome.
I sure am. Yeah. Hitting that up.
J.T. O'Donnell (17:45.146)
Yeah, it's month season here. So there's not really more skiing left. We're waiting for summer, which is good. just feel this is the season of graduation and charity events and stuff. You know, I just feel like every time I turn around, there's something else to go to. I might slip a birthday in there. So yeah, so there's stuff coming.
Chad (17:47.064)
It's mud.
Maureen Clough (17:50.391)
yeah.
Maureen Clough (17:59.59)
So true. I'm going to my 20th college reunion too. And those are happening as well. It's crazy.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:06.928)
Yeah.
Chad (18:06.95)
It's crazy. I went to one college reunion. did not, or not, well, I'm sorry, high school reunion. It did not turn out well. So therefore I haven't been back.
Maureen Clough (18:16.252)
no, what happened? boy. We're to get this after the show.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:18.897)
We're back. So you're not allowed back is what you're telling us, Chad, right? Yeah. There's like, you're on a list. Got it. Got it. You're on a list. Nice.
Chad (18:21.912)
I don't want to talk about it. All I gotta say is old high school, know, somewhat who wanted to be flames. You get a little drunk, people start to hit on you. Yeah. I'm a Julie almost killed a bitch that almost happened.
Maureen Clough (18:31.447)
J.T. O'Donnell (18:34.149)
Not allowed. Well, now that's a story we're going to need to hear over some drinks.
Maureen Clough (18:39.61)
Yeah, 100%.
Chad (18:39.844)
Yeah, I'll let Julie tell that one in the meantime.
Maureen Clough (18:44.016)
Ha ha ha.
Chad (18:48.944)
Whoo, so have you heard about this whole thing with Rippling and Deal? you have it. Yeah, you guys are full of shit. Anyway, it's literally, okay, listener, if you haven't listened, it's like corporate espionage thriller. So Rippling, which is a workforce management software, it's also a comedy, by the way, they recently sued Rival Deal, accusing them of planting a spy within their ranks.
J.T. O'Donnell (18:54.093)
No, what did something happen? What?
Maureen Clough (18:54.108)
What? Huh?
Maureen Clough (19:11.664)
literally.
Chad (19:17.478)
can listen to last week's show entitled deal spy games, to get more in depth podcast story. It's juicy. It's juicy. Anyways, now admits this scandal deals head of communications, Elizabeth Diana. That's a great name. Elizabeth Diana has resigned. She had been with the company since November, 2021 and her debark, her departure comes right on the heels of all of the spy talk. Meanwhile, rippling.
which has raised over two billion with a B, $2 billion already in funding, reportedly in talks to raise several hundred million more aiming for a valuation of 16 billion. So, okay, so give me your thoughts, JT, you start out first. Thoughts on Elizabeth leaving deal during this whole spy thriller thing, and then also the rippling cash. What do you think?
J.T. O'Donnell (20:07.419)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (20:14.513)
Okay, so her leaving deal reminds me of every political drama show I've ever watched where the comms person takes the hit. Do know what I mean? Somebody in that organization made some bad choices and you go to the comms person and go, the whole reason we really have you is for moments like this so we can fire you publicly, blame you. Hopefully she's getting the nice parachute, right? And somebody that they know is going to set her up with a job, but that's how that works, right?
Chad (20:21.839)
huh, trying to get out early.
Mm-hmm.
Chad (20:33.684)
OOOOH
Maureen Clough (20:43.196)
that's a good one.
Chad (20:44.087)
Yes.
J.T. O'Donnell (20:44.325)
I'm telling you, it's the, it's the calm person. That's what they do. Like that's why they're there, you know? So I, I'm hoping she's out there collecting the check on, you know, whatever. being a startup advisor, which I know we all are like, I can't wrap my head around why you need to go for more money. just, what? So you can, so you can say 16 billion with a B like that's just got bad news written all over it. You know, really, really hard for that unicorn status. I just don't think you need it though. You know, so.
Chad (20:54.31)
Whoo!
Chad (21:13.158)
Yeah? Yeah?
J.T. O'Donnell (21:14.562)
I don't know, what do you think?
Chad (21:16.518)
What about J? What do you think Mo?
Maureen Clough (21:18.992)
Well, I think that this proves the adage, there's no such thing as bad press is actually incorrect because this was so bad. She was like, peace, I'm out, right? Like I wouldn't want to touch this company with a 10 foot pole. I mean, I would just be like, you guys are on your own. I had nothing to do with this nonsense. Good luck to you. See you later. And hopefully she has some sort of package like you were saying, JT, where she can kind of coast for a bit. But I think I read she was previously at Meta Instagram and did some other pretty high profile stuff.
Chad (21:30.63)
Yeah.
Chad (21:48.356)
Uh-huh.
Maureen Clough (21:48.75)
I'm gathering she will land just fine. yeah, that dumpster fire, I would run as hard and as fast as I could away from it. I would want my name nowhere near it, which is why I feel so bad for the people who were innocent within the organization had nothing to do with this because this company, I think they're tarnished forever. I don't think this is, there's no redemption from this if you ask me, which I don't know. I mean, we'll see what happens. It's all allegations at this point, but based on what Mr. O'Brien had to say, it sure sounds pretty damn credible.
So shout out to Mr. O'Brien who gave us the most lurid details that I legitimately think this will be a Netflix drama. It was incredible.
J.T. O'Donnell (22:25.873)
Do you remember the Lyft, Lyft claimed at one point that Uber made a bunch of calls, a bunch of fake requests for Lyfts and then no shows. I swear that was the thing way back when, right? So it's got that whole competitive, right? And so true, so true. But you know what I mean? Like the fact that it still goes on.
Maureen Clough (22:35.106)
yes, yes, yeah.
Chad (22:36.976)
Yeah, yeah. Well, that was that was child's play compared to this, though.
Maureen Clough (22:41.678)
No.
Maureen Clough (22:46.094)
It's wild.
Chad (22:46.288)
I, so, you know, for Elizabeth leaving, all I can say is run Lizzie run, okay? Because, I mean, she had a star-studded resume before, as you'd said, Mo. She was global comms and PR at Google, might've heard of those guys. VP corporate comms at Facebook, head of comms at Insta. Dude, I'd run as fast and far as I could away from this mess, especially with the likelihood that some of her buddies in the C-suite
Maureen Clough (22:52.845)
No.
Maureen Clough (23:01.371)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (23:07.42)
Right? Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (23:08.163)
Exactly.
Chad (23:15.14)
are gonna be wearing orange jumpsuits possibly, possibly sometime soon. So yeah, I get it. mean, if you can get away from this, and again listeners, if you didn't listen to last week, the spy games, gotta listen, we ran through the affidavit. You gotta listen to that. But then we talk about other unicorns.
Maureen Clough (23:16.912)
in the big house.
Maureen Clough (23:35.644)
It was nuts.
Chad (23:42.765)
in
Oh my God, dude, we're talking about rippling needing cash. Talk about warning signals. Okay. So you remember the, I'm going to go back, I'm going to go back a little bit, uh, to March of 2023 when, uh, the SVB debacle happened. Silicon Valley bank. Remember when that happened and everybody was getting ready. So when that happened, I don't know if you remember this or not.
Maureen Clough (23:47.61)
I hadn't heard that one. It's great.
Maureen Clough (23:54.63)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:04.07)
Mm-hmm. yeah, absolutely.
Maureen Clough (24:05.367)
Mm-hmm, sure do.
Chad (24:10.412)
Rippling struck an emergency $500 million term sheet in 12 hours during that SVB meltdown. And as Joel would say, don't allow a crisis to go to waste. But seriously, this is, you know, to me is a huge warning signal. If I were a company looking for a workforce management payroll platform, looking at the unstable market,
Maureen Clough (24:16.816)
Wow.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:19.003)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (24:37.591)
wondering why Rippling needs more cash and remembering Rippling obviously wasn't on solid ground during the SVB meltdown, being able to cover payrolls, hence needing $500 million to be able to do that. yeah, I forgot about the whole spy drama too. Yeah, that thing's going on. In my honest opinion, I would get away from anything that was Rippling or deal at this point.
J.T. O'Donnell (24:47.909)
Right.
Chad (25:05.626)
I don't know if you got, even if they were my current provider, I would be in, in emergency mode, looking for a contingency just in case I needed to hop quick. Because the last thing you want to do is not have payroll. I mean, and I also have more news. Are you ready for more news?
J.T. O'Donnell (25:19.141)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (25:19.344)
Yeah, it's kind of important people like that.
Chad (25:29.806)
Yes, deal who's, who is also also a unicorn, Keith O'Brien deals former spy who was working at rippling has avoided imprisonment. That's right. He's not going to prison for contempt of court, despite admitting to destroying his iPhone, which was central to the allegations of corporate corporate espionage. O'Brien had been accused of acting as a spy for a riot rival deal.
After being served with a high court order on March 14th, yes, less than a month ago kids, to preserve his electronic devices, he performed a factory reset on his phone, later destroyed the phone with an axe.
Maureen Clough (26:16.156)
I just love the theatrics of this.
Chad (26:16.646)
I'm pausing. Yeah, it's a pregnant pause here. Cause I mean, with an axe and disposed of the remains down a drain at his mother-in-law's house, O'Brien claimed he was under duress, alleging harassment and surveillance of his family. The court accepted the apology and explanation deciding to impose a custodial sentence. So more likely is going to get like a, you know, a ankle bracelet or something like that. But, so do we believe
Maureen Clough (26:40.924)
monitor.
Chad (26:45.668)
This leniency has anything to do with O'Brien's cooperation thoughts?
Maureen Clough (26:51.964)
I'm no expert on this at all, but I would think so. And also like maybe a hat tip for the incredible details he provided. Like he didn't necessarily have to throw in that they mentioned James Bond, but he did. And for that, I'm forever grateful. Also, I mean, I have to say like at some level, he's the little guy in this situation. He was the pawn, pawn ship. Wait, is that a pawn? No.
J.T. O'Donnell (26:54.896)
Hmm.
Chad (27:02.982)
He did.
Chad (27:13.926)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (27:18.789)
Right.
Chad (27:20.762)
He's the pawn. Yeah. He was the pawn. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (27:21.478)
whatever the term is, he was the pawn and the masterminds were the high powered individuals. And I feel like so often those guys are kind of untouchable in the eyes of the law. mean, we all just, hopefully, if you like good television, we all just watch the White Lotus. And typically it's like the people in those positions of power, they just can do what they do and get away with it. So I kind of sort of like that they do. And I kind of sort of like that the little guy is not going down for this.
Chad (27:44.663)
And they do.
Maureen Clough (27:51.012)
in the same way that I imagine the big guys who orchestrated the whole thing, who are in the positions of exceptional power and wealth and privilege are going to go down.
Chad (28:01.86)
ArchJT.
J.T. O'Donnell (28:02.706)
I just, I just envisioned somewhere like in the police or wherever this goes, everybody's looking at this case going, don't want it. Like, I don't like you take this one. Low, low guy in the totem pole. Like you take this one. Like just like, don't, I don't want Mike. No, I just feel like there are people who was like, I'm not attaching this one to my career. These two nerdy HR companies are spy gaming it with this guy. Like I just, somewhere out there they're going, yeah, I don't want that one. Like.
Chad (28:16.218)
Are you saying if Johnny Cochran was alive, he wouldn't take this case?
Maureen Clough (28:23.42)
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Chad (28:27.782)
Dude.
J.T. O'Donnell (28:31.845)
Give it to someone else. Give it to Mikey. Remember Life's here. Give it to Mikey. I swear that's what they got to be thinking. But I am with Mo. I do think that he must have struck a deal of some type to be able to not go to jail. But the acts, like it just would have been more perfect if he filmed himself breaking his own phone like Kevin is his wife or somebody film it. the fact that he can give it to us in such vivid detail. Absolutely. Right. Again. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (28:31.888)
That's so funny.
Chad (28:34.362)
Give it to Mikey.
Chad (28:55.686)
Oh, we're going to get a re-enactment. We're going to get a re-enactment. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And just a quick reminder, he did all of this for 5,000 pounds a month.
Maureen Clough (28:58.413)
yeah. I can't wait.
Maureen Clough (29:04.924)
No!
J.T. O'Donnell (29:05.497)
I just...
Maureen Clough (29:07.9)
It kills me to know this. It kills me.
Chad (29:09.478)
5,000 pounds a month. That's about 6,000 US dollars. To be a spy, corporate espionage, you think that, I'm gonna get a cool mill each month to be able to knock this out, because we're gonna, know. At least six figures. Give me a break. Are you kidding me?
J.T. O'Donnell (29:13.273)
I just...
J.T. O'Donnell (29:24.977)
No. Has he not watched any movies? Like you asked for way more. Like a hit's at least 20 grand.
Maureen Clough (29:28.627)
Right?
way more.
J.T. O'Donnell (29:35.685)
Bye.
Maureen Clough (29:35.834)
It's wild.
Chad (29:36.718)
I know we are a cheap industry, don't get me wrong, but come on. O'Brien, you're worth more. You're worth more. Well, you're not now, but you were. You were worth more.
Maureen Clough (29:39.888)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
That takes the cake.
Yeah. Yeah, think he's done. Poor guy. Poor family, innocent family, know? that's the part that gets me.
J.T. O'Donnell (29:49.328)
Yeah.
Chad (29:52.355)
Excellent.
I know. I know. Anyway, as again, the prediction and as you were talking about earlier, Mo, I think and I said last week on last week's show, I think the only way to save deal, the only way to save deal is to clean the C-suite house, period. And I think that from a couple of different reasons, first and foremost, all the people who had nothing to do with it, they're going to fucking leave. And if you don't have the people to actually do the job in the first place, who have gotten you to where they're at, at about 800 million ARR in a very short amount of time,
Maureen Clough (30:08.742)
Yeah.
Chad (30:25.542)
What happens when they leave? Right? So you need to get that head shed. You need to get that C-suite restocked with adults in the room and do it quick. Because if you don't, think, I fear you're 100 % right Mo, they're gonna be dead.
Maureen Clough (30:27.803)
Nothing good.
Maureen Clough (30:35.228)
You
J.T. O'Donnell (30:41.787)
Chad, you know the industry best who's third that's nobody's talking about. mean, these two are duking it up. Who's third? And that's where I think I said this a couple of episodes ago, which we keep talking about these two, these two, these two, or whoever where it was talking. It's going to be somebody that's not even talking about that's going to win the game while they play these games.
Maureen Clough (30:42.0)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (30:45.508)
Well, so there are so many. There are so many EOR companies. I I love it.
Maureen Clough (30:46.022)
Great question.
Maureen Clough (30:59.26)
Who's, that's such a good point. Who's gonna be that underdog who rises up and eats their lunch right now? Great call.
Chad (31:00.454)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:03.951)
Yeah, whoever's listening, message in. Like, let's see. I want an informal poll that I didn't ask that we could do. Everybody message in and tell us who you think is going to be taken over while these two do get out. Yeah.
Chad (31:08.902)
God. They're so...
Maureen Clough (31:14.78)
Great call.
Chad (31:14.828)
Yes. And EOR is so big. It's gotten so much money over the last three years, that there are plenty of, there's Rippling and Deal, right? And then the rest of them, I don't want to say close third, but there's a pack of them and there's a ton of them. So yeah, I mean, this is definitely their opportunity literally to try to go and pick the bones of either one of these organizations. And when Rippling, to me again, sends the signal of warning,
J.T. O'Donnell (31:31.035)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:37.617)
100%.
Chad (31:44.506)
That they need more cash. Too easy. mean, that's just too easy.
J.T. O'Donnell (31:48.145)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (31:48.496)
Yeah, I think that's totally right. And I wonder how many of these competitors that are in this mix are going to capitalize specifically on this whole drama. Because I can imagine like such fire social media content, making fun of it and suggesting an alternative. So I kind of hope they get someone like the Duolingo Owl social media analyst or social media creator in there just like going to town. I can't remember her name, I feel bad saying that.
Chad (31:53.659)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (31:58.374)
They should.
Chad (32:02.692)
Yes.
Maureen Clough (32:16.442)
she's exceptional and she's done so much for that brand. But I think this is like the moment that you can leverage this and have it, you know, give you some great leads and close this.
Chad (32:27.374)
My advice is to check out whoever did the, the earlier AI video manufacturing video. That was pretty funny. And then have them actually do that for you as well. All right. We are going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back for a tariff version of buy or sell. Who's ready?
Maureen Clough (32:35.308)
yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Chad (32:49.282)
All right, here we go. okay, so it's sell kids. It's tariff week, so instead of having three startups getting cash, we only have one. Damn tariffs. So what happens? What happens when you get a tariff? Okay, so, geez.
J.T. O'Donnell (32:59.025)
Yeah. It's terrific, like she said.
Chad (33:08.154)
That was bad. That was really bad. Give me a second. gotta get my... Again, where's Joel when I need him? well, shit. Okay, whatever.
Maureen Clough (33:09.884)
You
Maureen Clough (33:16.625)
I don't know how either of you do that. would be like, seriously, it'd be so bad.
Chad (33:20.518)
We'll do this instead.
I do. So Artisan is the AI startup known for its cheeky stop hiring humans campaign has secured a 25 million series a funding round by glade brooke capital. Ironically, despite advocating for AI driven sales agents, Artisan is expanding its human team. That's right. They need humans currently employing 35 people with plans to hire 22 more.
23 year old CEO Jasper Carmichael Jack. That's right. His name is Jasper Carmichael Jack. would go by JCJ. Yes, I would do that. Emphasizes that the provocative slogan was primarily for attention, acknowledging that human labor becomes more valuable alongside AI advancements. That sounds like a bunch of bullshit, Jack. So the CEO is joined by
J.T. O'Donnell (34:04.784)
I like it.
Maureen Clough (34:05.628)
Wow.
You
J.T. O'Donnell (34:22.619)
Yeah.
Chad (34:25.638)
co-founder and chief product officer Sam Stallings. Now she is the veteran of the two at 30 years of age and spent eight years in product at IBM. So I'm gonna go ahead and do this first because I've been talking about agents, agents, agents for the last fricking months for goodness sakes. Does this young duo have what it takes to send Artisan to a big exit or maybe become the new platform for IPO?
J.T. O'Donnell (34:33.551)
nice.
Maureen Clough (34:33.734)
Mm.
tracks.
Maureen Clough (34:40.571)
interesting.
Chad (34:55.728)
First off, Sam working at IBM for eight years. IBM was a powerhouse 25 years ago. So Sam's experience is great, but how often do you hear about Watson? Right? This is not an NVIDIA. This is not a chat GPT, not an OpenAid, you know. Anyway, Artisan is experiencing high churn, which is very normal when you start selling a product.
Maureen Clough (35:12.294)
Mm-mm. You don't.
Chad (35:24.794)
That's not ready for the markets. I, currently advise, poetry, Adam Gordon, Mike and Stephen and, the team watching them take gen AI and agents into the market is masterclass. yes, you have to be fast because text velocity today is staggering, but you also need to know when to take a beat and listen to the market. Right. And it doesn't feel.
Maureen Clough (35:26.81)
Vaporware.
Chad (35:54.648)
Again, like these guys are doing that. I believe these two co-founders are brilliant. And even as Joel would say, this wave, the agent wave is a big wave. The problem is there are too many surfers on it. It's crowded. And unfortunately it feels like Artisan has a substandard surfboard. So for that reason, I'm going to go with a cell from me.
Maureen Clough (36:08.187)
Hmm.
Chad (36:20.442)
JT, what do think?
J.T. O'Donnell (36:22.363)
So here's the one thing I love about young startup founders is they don't know what they don't know. And they're not sitting with years of baggage behind them where they shoot down every idea because we tried it here, we did it here, whatever. I mean, I think there's something real there. So I love the energy of young founders that can do spirit. They don't carry the baggage. I like that. I'm with you. I don't see IBM as a visionary place. I think
Chad (36:25.787)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (36:36.538)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (36:49.137)
If they were much later stage, maybe she would see, you know, how bigger companies run and that could be a real plus, but I don't, I'm not seeing that there. I think the thing that you said that hits home most for me is just how many players are in the space. And when there's that many people in the space, it can be the littlest thing that's going to help you break through. And I'm not seeing or hearing that in what we had here. So for those reasons, there are sell for me too.
Maureen Clough (37:15.228)
I love it. Well, I'm really glad you guys are touching on the age of the founders because I think that matters. And the reality is you should have an intergenerational team in order to have the best possible outcomes. And people don't remember this in tech, especially there is such incredible bias for youth. And so everybody wants the young founders. But guess what? The young founders don't have experience, which I view as a massive asset in
Chad (37:15.654)
That's right. That's right. Mo, what do think? Your thoughts.
Maureen Clough (37:42.094)
you can have all of these things together. You can have these people who haven't tried things before and are not necessarily feeling as though they have the roadmap and that might embolden them in some ways that some other people would be held back by, right? But if you don't have people who've been there done that and have the experience to see around corners, see potential pitfalls emerge before people with less experience, I mean, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. And like so many, did obviously a lot of...
young founders in tech companies still make it, right? But like you said, there's so many people on this wave. And so if you have two people who are super young early in their career, and by the way, like young people are freaking brilliant and I am not being ageist against young people. I wanna make that very clear. My whole podcast is about ageism in the workplace. So I'm not being ageist here. I care deeply about the subject. But this is a moment where I think you need people who have experience to help.
guide along the way. And one of the things that freaks me so much out about this whole AI boom is that we don't have intergenerational teams and people are hurtling through space in an arms race to find and develop technology the most quickly as possible so that they can make the most money as possible. And they don't have guardrails in place. We don't have regulations. We don't have people who've been there done that kind of sorting through what's going on. And I think that opens us up to so much risk and
to the possibility of less revenue and value creation. So for those reasons, I'm gonna pass, but I also do wanna say that I like that the founder Jasper Jack or whatever his name is, I like that he admitted that his billboards were specifically to provoke. Like thanks for saying the quiet part out loud. And the reality is, know, this is what companies everywhere are doing. He's just saying it out loud. He's like.
If they can outsource you with cheaper labor elsewhere, or if they can replace you with AI, or if they think they can, it doesn't matter if you're at work in the office five days a week, if you're best friends with your boss, if a company thinks that they can replace you with cheaper labor, whether that be by a robot or a human across the world, or someone who they think they can extract and exploit, who may be younger, for example, because one of the things I can't stand is that I feel like tech companies push out older workers so that they can hire and then exploit younger workers, which is not cool.
Chad (40:01.094)
part of the recipe. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (40:03.1)
But like all of these things like I this is the quiet part out loud This is what every company is doing and he's just kind of coming out and saying it and also provoking people and getting buzz So I think that's actually kind of smart and so anyway, that's just a side note. But yeah, I'm still passing I'm out
Chad (40:23.354)
Yeah, so I do agree. mean, they are on as again, Joel always talks about the way this is a great way of the problem is that you have and just a great example, you have a company like smart recruiters. They were a legacy type of platform from an applicant tracking system standpoint, at least the way that they were set up, right? The way that they were actually built. And they in less than three months,
turned the ship around and went full agentic all to the point where they were, I believe the highest quadrant for Gartner's quadrant that they just put out. So they went from, that's how fast you can move if you have resources, right? So the problem is trying to actually start up a new company, right? And trying to compete with organizations that already have all of these resources. Number one,
And then number two, are, you're a dime a dozen. You're a dime a dozen. Every single company that's going to want to get funding is going to have AI and agentic out there. They have to. That's where the money's at. And if you don't have it, then you're not going to get the money. Right. And some of those organizations that are out there who are not looking to take cash, because they're focused on, you know, trying to get into the market and get a quick, quick exit. I see that happening, but
These guys are Y Combinator. They take 25 million. That's something that I'm personally not interested in. So that is our tariff version of buy or sell kids. So there you go. Let's go ahead and hit the next one. This next one straight out of CNBC. my God. So companies, companies are facing a new threat. Job seekers who aren't
Maureen Clough (41:51.388)
Hmm.
Maureen Clough (41:56.54)
So with you.
Ha ha ha.
Maureen Clough (42:11.013)
Chad (42:16.026)
who they say they are using AI tools to fabricate photo IDs, generate employment history and provide answers during interviews. wait, no, there's more. There's more, you thought that was bad. This one from Fortune Magazine. So it turns out that North Koreans didn't need to hack your firewall. Nope, you just hired them into your organization as remote workers. Yep, the hacker.
is coming from inside the house. So Fortune 500 companies have unknowingly employed North Korean IT workers posing as remote staff. These fake hires funneled their salaries and access back to Pyongyang, possibly even funding missile programs, who knows? So while companies were busy trying to build strong firewalls,
Maureen Clough (42:48.028)
We're so screwed.
Chad (43:10.638)
North Korean spies are gaining access via VPN during your company onboarding. I got no words. Who wants to tackle this one? Anyone?
Maureen Clough (43:21.104)
go, mom, will you please come pick me up? I am freaking terrified. Like this is not okay. And the fact that this is happening at Fortune 500 companies where you would imagine that their compliance and security teams would be top notch, tip top. I've worked in tech for a long time. Like I had to log into so many VPN systems and all this stuff and there were so, it was so irritating as an employee and
Chad (43:31.066)
Yes.
Chad (43:43.27)
But they're already in, that's the thing.
Maureen Clough (43:44.666)
And they're exactly, yes, but it's just like, how did they get through the process without being found? Like that freaks me out because I'm like, come on guys. we had, I hope that this story gets spread far and wide because this is freaking terrifying. Like this is really, really grossly frightening to me. And I think, you know, and I also read another, excuse me. I read another story related to this about the fact that some of these workers that were aided and abetted,
Chad (43:50.17)
Background check anyone?
Maureen Clough (44:13.562)
were aided and abetted by US citizens who got paid for facilitating the entry of these fake IT workers. like, should go to, you should be in prison for that. This is like so unacceptable. And I think right now, the fact that this is coming out, I think it means that every company that gives a damn about our country and our security has to beef up their,
cybersecurity, their interview process, it sucks. It's a burden that's going to fall, I think, on companies to take up, but it is the right thing to do. It's the only thing to do. This is so terrifying to me, truly. I mean, it like made my blood run cold thinking about this. And especially with all the technology that we have at our fingertips to try to prevent this kind of thing, the fact that it's happening to this degree and has been since 2018, it just gives me the chills.
Chad (45:02.32)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (45:10.416)
Honestly, like it really, it really makes me feel deeply unsafe, kind of like when war plans get sent across signal. That's also a little frightening. So yeah, I'm scared. I'm scared.
Chad (45:23.942)
JT, can you bring us off the ledge? Okay. Deep breath.
J.T. O'Donnell (45:24.753)
Probably not. I don't think I'm known on this shift for bringing anybody off the ledge. I'm pretty sure I'm the one that pushes. So, you know, we just came off talking about, you know, instead of hiring humans, hiring bots and how this is all working, we have been talking for so long now about how companies that finally figured out, wait, the jobs I have for remote will let me go get remote workers where they're cheaper. So there's been this massive offshoring ideas and concepts and
Maureen Clough (45:26.71)
hahahahah
J.T. O'Donnell (45:53.868)
You know, if it's too good to be true, if you've got a worker that sounds perfect on paper, that's willing to work for five bucks an hour, should we be suspect? You know, and that's where it just boggles my mind for all the reasons you spoke of Mo, but also the fact that these companies are just, they're just so quick to go do these things without double checking. Where, where is this going to go? Is it going to bring us full circle back to people have to physically be in front of us to know that they're real?
Maureen Clough (46:14.278)
Hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (46:22.405)
You know, I've saw multiple tech companies have said they are now only doing in-person hiring and in-person testing because they have been screwed so badly by remote workers. have to physically come in and you have to actually do the work in front of them so they know that it's really you. That's where we've gotten full circle. And I think you're going to continue to see and hear that because of what's happening at this scale. So, you know, how do they adjust for that? How do they compensate for that? I don't know, but it's, you know, it's scary times.
Maureen Clough (46:22.748)
you
Chad (46:23.056)
Yeah.
Chad (46:37.094)
Hmm.
Maureen Clough (46:39.132)
Jeez.
Maureen Clough (46:51.452)
really is.
Chad (46:52.176)
All I have to say...
Chad (46:57.102)
Yes. mean, we've got the thing that kills me about companies right now. It's move fast, break things. Well, they're going to be breaking their own things from the inside out because they're not doing the background checks. They're not doing the due diligence. They're not doing what's necessary to make sure that they're safe. And as Moad said, it's really hard today to try to get serious about your corporate side when you've got the U S government putting things on signal.
It's so, I mean, it's over and over. So yes, I've got to play it twice and then.
Maureen Clough (47:31.004)
Hahahaha
Chad (47:33.574)
and we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be back.
Maureen Clough (47:35.898)
You
Chad (47:39.192)
All right, so if it can't get any crazier, another one from CNBC, Spotify CEO Toby Lutke told employees in a memo, classy Toby, a memo, that's awesome, that they'll have to show jobs can be done by AI or they can't be done by AI before asking for more headcount or resources. So, wow, a memo, number one, that's pretty impersonal.
J.T. O'Donnell (48:03.365)
Mmm.
Chad (48:08.794)
I mean, a memo and then saying, look, you have to prove to me that you deserve these new resources, thoughts. This is, this is not going to be, this isn't, this is, this is going to be a trend. Watch it.
J.T. O'Donnell (48:19.598)
Office.
J.T. O'Donnell (48:23.377)
Oh, I mean, first of all, as a 20 year career coaching veteran, right? Coaching people every day, I explained to them, you are not an employee. You are a business of one. You are a service provider. Okay. And your job is to show how you save or make enough money to justify the cost of hiring you, which is about 130 to 140 % of your salary. Do the math back in the work and prove yourself. If you want to stay employable, when all this AI stuff hits, first thing I said to people is understand either figure out how to use the AI or you're out the door.
Figure it out, either be the prompt and figure, be the head of marketing. They can do the work of 10 people. I'm not saying you're working 60 hours a week. I'm saying, show them how you can do it in 35, you know, but the work of 10 people, if you don't figure that out sooner than later, you are going to be in trouble. And that is exactly where we are now, because eventually those people way at the top, we're going to understand the magnitude. And I'm going take you totally off subject for a minute, but to show you my husband's a pilot. Okay. He's not spending time on chat. TPT doesn't care. We're planning this trip to Europe.
Maureen Clough (49:15.964)
You
J.T. O'Donnell (49:22.513)
He's trying to figure out the miles and he looks at me and says, you haven't planned the itinerary. It's going to take time. We need to clear a schedule. like, okay. I said, why don't you pick those dates? He's picking the dates. I'm putting into chat GPT a prompt about us, what we want, what we want to do. He tells me the dates. I hand him my computer. He goes, what I go, there's your 11 page detail complete with Google maps, hyperlink suggestions. He goes, shut up. He opens it up. He looks at it and he looks at me he goes, is this a public company? Can I invest?
Maureen Clough (49:45.413)
You
Chad (49:50.566)
Ha!
Maureen Clough (49:50.683)
Hahaha!
J.T. O'Donnell (49:51.538)
Little behind, baby. Little behind with the chat. I love you. I love you. But no. And but my point in that moment was how long has he heard about chat, GPT? But the moment somebody does something that you get, and that's where I feel like executives are hitting now, they are starting to see the magnitude. And so you are going to he is just leading the way of C suites going, show me what you're doing with AI. And when you can show me that this has to be done with a human.
Maureen Clough (49:55.462)
amazing.
J.T. O'Donnell (50:20.001)
you're going to see this is just the beginning for that reason exactly, which is why either be part of the AI solution or you're out, you know? And so we've been talking about this for over a year with people, until it happens to them, they, you know, they just don't see it until it, until it hurts, you know? And so there you have it.
Maureen Clough (50:22.434)
yeah.
Maureen Clough (50:28.092)
your gun.
Maureen Clough (50:37.18)
100%. I agree with literally everything you just said. And what I also found to be really interesting is there was another, there was a snapshot of that memo itself. And so it's clear from the snapshot of the memo that not only is it an expectation for people to actually use AI tools in their day-to-day jobs, there's also an expectation that you share the findings with the group. So there's, it's all self-guided. They expect you to go DIY AI and it's not.
something that they're doing a corporate rollout, they're not giving you training. And so that to me seems like such a massive gap and they're putting it on the backs of the workers, right? Which to your point, JT, because of the way these things are shifting, we should be doing anyway, but now they're being forced to by their bosses, right? So it's kind of like, eat your broccoli, like we should have been doing this all along, right? And now there's a mandate, but.
Companies don't know what they're doing. This is all fly by night. They're like, hey, use AI. Tell us what you did. Did it work? What should we change? Like, how should we roll this out? So there's still, I view a huge need for AI education across organizations because people don't know what they don't know to your point. And there is a lot of...
resistance to AI adoption. It's decreasing thankfully, but there was a huge difference between women and men in their adoption. was like over the course of 18 studies, Harvard Business School did a report that said it was on average 25 % lower adoption rate for women. Wow. I mean, the impact of that, huge. We're actually, we're moving up. It's gonna be better, thankfully. People are getting it. But I also found it interesting. Women, one of the reasons that was...
was suggested as one of the reasons they did not want to adopt AI was they felt like it was quote, cheating. And with women who often have this imposter syndrome thing, I can totally see why they're like, ooh, I don't want, know, ooh, I don't want someone to think like I only was able to achieve this because I had a chatty GPT robot helping me, right? But it's, we're finally figuring that out, but there's also much more adoption of AI tools in younger generations than older generations. But there are also,
Chad (52:26.106)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (52:33.402)
Right.
Maureen Clough (52:46.492)
older people over the age of 45 who are AI masters. They totally know it inside and out. the thing that I think freaks me out about all this AI stuff is there's already so much ageism in hiring. And there was a study that came out recently by Generation that was funded by Google, google.org. And they found that it was something like 60 % more likely that people would consider, or gosh, I'm gonna get, I'm like, I literally wrote these down so I wouldn't,
botch this, but here I am. Sometimes the numbers get changed, but I promise you it's worth this. finding it right now. So only 32 % of US employers would consider candidates over age 60 for AI focused or AI adjacent roles, like roles that leverage AI, which for Shopify, every employee is expected to use them. So if you're over 60, you're going for jobs, which by the way, by 2030, 25 % of the available workforce will be
over 55. So this is going to impact a ton of people in a ton of companies. People don't want to hire you because they don't think that you have what it takes. So we have a lot of work to do. And a lot of it, frankly, is just going to be on us until companies get a roadmap and they're able to help us with training and anti-bias prevention and stuff once they care about that again. Anyway, that was a lot. But.
Chad (54:11.174)
Yeah. So, I mean, for me, this is the same as it ever was. This isn't new. It's just another version of why do you need this position? Right? And this is something that hiring managers have had to deal with for years, but now there's an AI spin to it. Remember? So now, instead of, you're being fired because of AI. Now it's like, proved to me that you deserve these resources.
That AI can't do it, right? That is not cheaper. I think obviously the HR managers, there should be supporting in being able to pull together a lot of this data. but here's a quick hack for, for, for TA folks, forever. We've needed to learn the business side and there's no better time than now due to this rapid transformation in business to help differentiate departments and build
business cases on how specific positions are vital and they impact the business's bottom line. This is our chance as TA to actually come in as experts, learn the different disciplines, the different vital positions so that we understand the business more. That's one of the biggest issues is that we have not been strategic enough and we can't be strategic because we don't understand the business. This gives us the opportunity to get into the cogs of the actual business.
to see what moves business and what's bullshit. We don't need that position anymore. That's dumb, right? Be the person that focuses on doing that and being the expert for your organization and then they will never call you a fucking cost center again.
Maureen Clough (55:50.972)
That's brilliant, really good advice. Love that mic drop moment for you.
J.T. O'Donnell (55:53.591)
Well said. Well said.
Chad (55:55.568)
Thank you, thank you. Well, that's another week in the can, I guess. Joel's not around, so that's gonna happen again next week. He'll be back, kids, don't worry. Don't worry, either JT, Mo, Emmy will be around too. So we'll be back next week, but until then, I don't have a dad joke because that's a Joel thing.
Maureen Clough (56:20.284)
I can't help either.
Chad (56:21.638)
And plus, I don't want to talk about lesbian scissoring or anything like that because that's his thing. So I'm just going to leave it with, we out.
Maureen Clough (56:25.433)
boy, that would be, that's his lane.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:31.92)
out.
Maureen Clough (56:32.742)
Peace.