In this laugh-out-loud episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, titled "Divergence," Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman navigate the absurdity of corporate shenanigans, AI overreach, and the delusions of grandeur among CEOs with a healthy dose of snark and bourbon.
The duo dives into Amazon's latest AI triumphs, which supposedly saved 4,500 developer years—because who doesn't measure time in developer years? Is it all just smoke and mirrors, diverting from mass layoffs and tech world domination by Jeff Bezos' minions?
The episode wouldn’t be complete without some hard-hitting industry analysis, with comparisons on the latest CEO swaps at iCIMS and SmartRecruiters to a game of quarterback musical chairs. Spoiler: neither of them is particularly impressed with iCIMS' latest Hail Mary. And just when you think it couldn't get more ridiculous, they tackle Chick-fil-A's newest venture into the world of streaming. Yes, the chicken sandwich overlords are now apparently trying to conquer Netflix.
In short, this episode is a rollercoaster of sharp wit, cutting industry insights, and enough bourbon-fueled banter to make even the most jaded corporate drone chuckle.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:24.451)
OOOOH YEAH, just two guys slowly walking down the hall faster than a cannonball. Hi boys and girls. It's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Gallagher Cheeseman.
Chad (00:40.475)
And this is, Euro Chad is everywhere, Sowash.
Joel (00:45.004)
And on this episode, Amazon optimizes Chick -fil -A streams and a little buy or sell. yeah, let's do this.
Chad (00:58.234)
Yes!
Joel (00:58.506)
Euro Chad has almost left the building. You look, huh.
Chad (01:01.987)
No, well, here's the beautiful thing. We went through the, let me fix this for Sergey first. We went through the legal process and received Portuguese residency status, which means as Americans.
Which means as Americans that Julie and I can come and go as we please. We don't have to count the 90 days and you know within 180 days, we don't have to play the math trigonometry shingin kind of game. We can come and go as we please. And that is a beautiful thing.
Joel (01:36.75)
So many, and so many jokes with the term Julie and I can come and go as we please, but I will not, I will not go there. Well, congratulations. The morphing into pit bull continues and will only get worse now that you are actually allowed to be there all the time. And depending on how the election goes in a few months, you might really be there for a lot of the time, depending on where our country goes. What
Chad (01:42.083)
Yes. Just leave it out there. Leave it out there. Thank you.
Chad (01:52.933)
Yeah. Yes.
Chad (01:59.892)
Yes, yes.
Joel (02:03.446)
What do you miss most about the USA? What are you most excited to come back home to? Is it football season? Is it your dogs? What is it?
Chad (02:11.695)
Yeah, my dogs, definitely the dogs. Downsizing here, know, back in the States, we have a pretty big house. Here we've got a two bedroom, two bath. It is totally downsized. It is wonderful, but definitely do miss the dogs, miss friends, miss family, that kind of stuff. But again, having just the free and easy, you know, opportunity to travel back and forth is awesome. This last weekend, what I won't miss though, or what I will miss about coming home,
Joel (02:39.032)
Mm
Chad (02:40.651)
is there are festivals every fucking weekend around this place. We went to a medieval festival in a little place called Castro Marim last weekend. One of the strongholds of the Knights Templar. Have you heard of those guys? There's a fort on the top of a big hill right across from Spain. So there's a river. You can see Spain. They had this big, I mean, Knights fighting, kind of jousting situations.
Joel (02:48.888)
Yep.
Joel (02:54.86)
I have.
Chad (03:08.515)
Food drink it was amazing. It was just it was a blast. So yeah tons of festivals But yeah, I can't wait to come back home see the dogs come see my friends at conferences and events, which we'll talk about in a few
Joel (03:21.39)
Sure. Well, you may not know this, but you're getting to come home to Scotland.
Chad (03:27.365)
What? What?
Joel (03:30.722)
I heard a radio spot this week that the Scottish festival is going to be in Bartholomew County next weekend. So you get to come home to a Scottish festival. How, how fun is that? Authentic experience. Like you're actually in Edinburgh. I'm sure. I'm Like you're there.
Chad (03:35.415)
yes. Columbus.
Hahaha!
Chad (03:47.203)
Yeah. Like we're there. Like, like we're there. And I'm sure it'll, it'll, it'll definitely throw us back to earlier this year when we were in the highlands of Scotland.
Joel (03:57.292)
Yes, it will definitely throw you back to the castles and the medieval architecture of Scotland. All right, let's get to some shout out, shall we?
Chad (04:06.219)
Okay, okay. I get to go first. Let's go ahead and we're going to start with, get ready, get ready, get ready. you don't know what's coming, which is beautiful. So to Joel's favorite Kentucky straight bourbon, chicken cock. Watch this kids.
Joel (04:14.19)
I don't know what's My favorite.
Joel (04:41.218)
Jesus.
Chad (04:55.356)
Okay, so the reason I played that reason reason I played that kids is because we had a friend of the show, Said Eastman actually DMed me last night. He was like, this is the perfect bourbon for Cheeseman. And I was like, yes, no, it is. So this is what this will be your your favorite bourbon as we find it in the US and all of our listeners start to send chicken cock Joel Keesman Cheeseman's way.
Joel (05:09.966)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (05:21.272)
I'm waiting for the Chick -fil -A partnership with with Chick and Cock. It's, actually really good. It's kind of a higher end, a higher priced bourbon. So, I mean, they're, they're spinning it as like a joke, but to get awareness, but it's actually pretty good. Pretty good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm big, big fan of the cock. Yes, sir. And I'm a big fan as you know, Chad of the band Oasis, my favorite band. they
Chad (05:29.133)
Yeah?
So you're a fan of the chicken cock. That's what I'm hearing.
Chad (05:48.44)
Yes, you.
Joel (05:50.798)
broke up in 2009. They just announced this week. That's right. They're getting back together.
Chad (05:53.123)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (06:01.048)
Touring on a reunion tour. That's right. and conveniently touring the UK right around rec fest. So the, the stars are aligning that I may get to see Oasis in the UK, with coal. it'll be a really good time. I was surprised. I know it was big news in the UK, probably most of Europe. It was kind of a story here. It was on CNN. It was on the nightly news. Like I was pretty surprised because
Chad (06:13.149)
very nice.
Chad (06:23.33)
Mm
Joel (06:29.75)
Oasis had a minute back in like the mid nineties, but that's a long time ago. The fact that it was a new story, was, was pretty cool. So, so that's my, my main shout out the best news of the week by far. my other, it's a gen X combo Chad. That's right. It's a gen X combo went to, went to Pearl jam, this week they were in town at, at a Rue off. It's kind of an outdoor place. You can imagine.
Chad (06:32.723)
yeah.
Chad (06:44.815)
Yes.
Chad (06:49.699)
Nice, huh.
Chad (06:54.575)
Venue. Yeah.
Joel (06:55.928)
But I got a little rant. got a rant. got to, I got to let go on, on Gen X for a second. Okay. Gen X, my Gen X brothers and sisters. This is a public service announcement. I roll up into the Pearl Jam concert. There's a big lawn, a lot of people. It's sold out. Everyone knows it's sold out. Right. Okay. It is, it is a sea of beach chairs and blankets. Okay. Listen, listen to me for a second. Gen X.
Chad (07:04.484)
Mm
Chad (07:14.536)
yeah, of course.
Joel (07:26.488)
There are few bands that really encapsulate what Gen X is. Pearl Jam is one of them. Gen X do not show up at a sold out Pearl Jam concert in your lawn chairs. Okay? That ain't happening. That's not how we roll. Okay? This is the generation of drinking from the outside water fountain. Don't go home until the street light comes on.
Chad (07:31.727)
Yes.
Chad (07:48.76)
man.
Joel (07:52.962)
the latchkey kids, we were feral running the streets. Don't come at a Pearl Jam show that sold out in your beach chair, okay? That's all I'm saying. Don't do it. It's a bad look for the generation. Don't do it, don't do it. That's all I got, that's all I got.
Chad (08:04.591)
Taking up too much space, that what we're hearing? What's going on?
Chad (08:10.405)
Well, I don't think you realize what Gen X is all about is that we don't give a fuck. So whether you like it or not, those people would look at you and say, fuck off.
Joel (08:21.452)
And that's fine. But I'm giving you my opinion. You look weak. You look really weak when you go to a show, a rock show with a legit band and you're rolling in your Birkenstocks and the beach chair. just no, no, it's a little bit of weed, a little bit of weed. It's illegal here, Chad. I don't know if you knew that or not. It's, still illegal in the Hoosier state.
Chad (08:22.789)
See?
Chad (08:28.057)
Look comfy, look comfy.
Chad (08:33.787)
Probably smoking weed. Probably smoking weed. Yeah, probably smoking weed. Huh? Yeah, not in Ohio, Illinois, in Michigan. We're freaking surrounded almost.
Joel (08:45.231)
yeah. Yeah.
yeah. We're getting contact highs all the time just cause we're surrounded by a bunch of pot smoke in States. But, but yeah, good show, little heavy on the newer stuff, but they close it out with, with bangers. They close it out with lead better alive, corduroy, like the last four or five songs, like they brought it. So good on them. But yeah, the beach chairs I could, I could do without. I could do it.
Chad (08:51.727)
All right. Of course.
Chad (09:06.565)
Just kill
Chad (09:10.523)
Yeah, no, you know who else brought it? The fucking Kelsey Brothers. Shout out to New Heights, the Kelsey Brothers podcast that signed a three year deal with Amazon's Wondery that's worth more than $100 million. So remember last week when we both said Zip Recruiter starting from ground zero and wasting their president's time starting the actual podcast was fucking stupid.
Case in point, go to where your audience is and either buy the podcast in this case or build something with the already established podcast. So shout out to the Kelsey Brothers and their New Heights podcast. Just makes sense. Go to where their people are. Don't try to build it yourself. It's just dumb.
Joel (09:59.17)
That's Chad's subliminal way of telling zip recruiter that we're for sale. are for sale for a hundred million, for a hundred million dollars. We are for sale. by the way, do you like Kelsey's new look? It's the must. It's the porn stash. He's growing the hair out. yeah, he's morphing into, you know, a Swifty, I think, I don't know.
Chad (10:10.126)
It just.
Chad (10:20.1)
It's really weird because Aaron Rodgers was trying to get on, know, slip into Taylor Swiss DMs at one time and he has the porn stash. So it's really weird to see Kelsey kind of emulate the porn stash look, especially with crazy ass Aaron Rodgers.
Joel (10:36.578)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, a hundred million dollars, Chad will buy a lot of beer, bourbon and other fun stuff, but you don't need a hundred million dollars at the Chad and cheese podcast to get some free stuff. Tell them what they can get by signing up.
Chad (10:42.607)
Yes. yeah. huh.
No, sir. No, sir.
Well, first and foremost, you got to go to Chadcheese .com slash free to register for all these free and wonderful things. First and foremost, T -shirts, nice, warm, cozy T -shirts feels like a hug from Chad and cheese. But it's also a hug from our friends at Aaron app. That's right. Chad and cheese T -shirts, the new newly designed Chad and cheese T -shirts, fourth generation beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. That's right. Aspen Tech Labs curates.
some craft beer and actually sends it to your front door. One person wins a month. Another person will win two, not just one, two bottles of whiskey from Tex Colonel Bullhorn. again, you just can't beat it. Who knows? You might have some chicken cock at your front door. And then if it's your birthday, you got the rums from Plum.
That's right, baby. If it's your birthday, you could possibly win Rum from Plum. Go to ChadCheese .com slash free.
Joel (12:01.848)
That's right, Chad. Some loyal listeners are celebrating another trip around the sun, including Olivia Marquette, Shawnee Underwood, Matt O'Donnell, Etel Feinberg, Scott Nelson, Stacey Shaw, Gemma Jones, Matt Gardner, Marcie Mall, Rosie Pullman, Deb Clay, Charles Hunger, Mike Brown, and Hoke, Rick Worley, Chris Bellets, Chris Hoyt, Chris Murdock, James Ellis, Bill Borman,
And last but not least, Cole Brennan Cheeseman turns 18 on September 1st. Holy shit chat. I've kept something alive for 18 years. Can you believe it?
Chad (12:35.929)
and
Chad (12:40.025)
Nice. Wow. Wow. No, it's it is hard to believe. It is very hard. So is that I think it's Marcy Darth Maul, I think is actually her. That's that's her middle name. Yeah, I think so.
Joel (12:52.408)
Darth Maul, yeah, Maul Ratt, a lot of names. I'm excited about, as you roll us into fantasy football, Chad, that's right. I miss giving the nicknames. We'll be announcing the final roster soon of players. September 4th is draft day or night, depending on where the, it's kind of a global, global,
Chad (13:10.425)
Yeah.
Chad (13:18.681)
Yeah, this is global. Yep.
Joel (13:18.734)
global roster this year. so depending on where you are, might be night morning, who knows, but yeah, we'll be announcing that very soon. Thanks to our friends at factory fix for supporting year number three of their sponsorship of fantasy football with Chad and cheese. And as you know, this will be the Florida state went down top 10 team ups first game of the year, big upset. you can imagine in my house,
Chad (13:29.029)
factory fixed.
Chad (13:40.546)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Joel (13:46.85)
West Virginia taking on Penn State, number eight Penn State in Morgantown this Saturday. So football is cranking up and that means fantasy football is cranking up as well. Get ready.
Chad (13:56.507)
Pretty stoked, pretty stoked, yeah. And then, well, think about it, kids. We've got events. We've got Wreckfest, Wreckfest, Wreckfest in Nashville, September 12th and 13th. It's almost here, kids. my God. My liver's ready for it, by the way. We're going to be in the Shaker Green Room.
doing interviews with speakers, drinking beer, making lots of noises. We're also going to be hosting a VIP event at the end of day one at Redneck Riviera with great people, great people, higher clicks and job pixel. And did you see they have hot chicken sliders on the menu, Joel? Did you see that? Huh? Huh? Did you see that?
Joel (14:37.784)
That's right, baby. Spit on that thing. I am excited about some hot chicken, boy. Yes.
Chad (14:44.485)
But you can't enjoy Wreckfest unless you're at Wreckfest. So go to ChadCheese .com slash events, click the big registration or register button right there and come see us. We can't wait to see you there. And if you want to see us at the VIP party, just go to my LinkedIn and right in my feed, you'll be able to find it. There'll be a big and rich, I think it's a big rich, I can't remember which one it is. Anyway, he's the guy who owns
the owns the Redneck Riviera go figure and click on it. Register. Hope to see you there.
Joel (15:19.864)
Yep. And by the way, if you're looking to go to the, to the conference, maybe you haven't had time, just a little pricey, whatever. Chad and cheese might be able to hook you up. DM us, slide into our DMS. might have a little coupon code. Thanks to our friends at rec fest, but we want you to be there. It's going to be a great time. And, don't let price be a reason why you can't attend this great conference.
Chad (15:24.249)
Mm.
Chad (15:30.063)
Possibly.
Chad (15:39.259)
No.
Chad (15:45.135)
Topics!
Joel (15:48.094)
All right, Chad, we start with a tale of two companies this week, smart recruiters and ISEMs. This week, smart recruiters smartly moved Rebecca Carter CEO after serving as chief product officer while also looking to make a bigger splash at upcoming conferences than they normally do. ISEMs on the other hand is rumored to be laying off a good number of employees in Europe and that's following layoffs company -wide just a few weeks ago. Chad.
Chad (15:52.144)
Hoo!
Joel (16:16.354)
What's your take on the current state of smart recruiters and iCIMs?
Chad (16:21.979)
Well, both companies have replaced their CEOs in less than a year. Both of those CEOs ejected without any or much notice, which is incredibly rare. The most interesting thing is the types of CEOs that iCIMs and smart recruiters chose as replacements. So number one, Jason Edelboim has a very impressive background. mean, the guy was a producer at CNN.
He was a business manager for the media group at Bloomberg. He was at PR Newswire where he led corporate dev, was in corporate media distribution and product. He was the president of Sision, a media software company, then a president and CEO or COO at Data Miner.
Yeah, it says what it is. They mine data and basically they were an AI and machine learning company. Then became the CEO at iSim's, his first gig in TA. Now by contrast, we have Rebecca Carr. She was at Branch Out, which we all have fond memories of, right? Back in 2010.
Joel (17:33.048)
some of us.
Chad (17:36.581)
Jobvite, where she was director of strategic accounts, right? So she was really in the sales and sales role at that point. She came to Smart Recruiter. She was VP of sales engineering, then VP of product, and VP of growth. So there's a lot of product, a lot of sales and growth that's happening there. She moved to Checker.
VP and Chief of Staff to the CEO. Then she came back to Smart Recruiters where she was the Chief Product Officer and now the new CEO. So Joel, what do these two CEO picks mean to you? I mean, because they are incredibly different. What does that look for iCIMs from a leadership standpoint and then obviously Smart Recruiters?
Joel (18:20.78)
I see you trying to set me up for the banana tailpipe on this one, but I'm I'm not falling, falling for it yet. so the quick, the quick answer to your question is you have one that has a core competency in our space that understands, the customer pretty well understands the dynamics of all the moving parts that go on in our industry. And you have one that has an impressive resume with some brand names who probably looks really good to Vista.
Chad (18:23.851)
Come on!
Chad (18:34.64)
Yeah.
Joel (18:46.338)
Who acquired a majority stake in ISEMS and has come in. I would also add that you've had some really real instability on both sides. ISEMS went through two CEOs before this one. One left abruptly to say the least, which was very really weak to say the least. then, and then the one, the CEO before Rebecca was there for a year, I think before, before he bounced. So there's been some real volatility in both.
Chad (18:46.543)
Big brands.
Chad (18:55.28)
Yes.
Chad (19:05.979)
Weird.
Joel (19:15.244)
these organizations, ISIM said, let's just have it. Let's just throw another one at the wall and see if it sticks. Whereas smart recruiters said, okay, let's, let's like anchor this thing to someone that has been around the block a few times and understands things. so the difference is like, one feels sort of a hail Mary. The other one feels like what took you so long. And you and I said this when we interviewed Rebecca as interim CEO that Jesus, how, what's the deal? Like she needs to be the CEO.
Chad (19:38.006)
Yeah.
Joel (19:44.78)
I don't know what took so long, but at least somebody came to their senses and made the switch. But yeah, this is simply, look, you have one quarterback that has never played football and you have one that knows what the hell's going on. I'm going to put my money on the one that has been around the block a few times. and I Sims, hope for the best at this point. That would be my answer to your question of how are these, how are these things different?
Chad (20:01.294)
Mm
Chad (20:10.247)
I really welcome the chat, hopefully we're gonna have with Jason over at ISOM so we can learn a little bit more about him. But first and foremost, mean, when leaders change as we talk about the layoffs, shit changes, right? And especially when you're hired for a specific task, the question is, what is that task for Jason? A successful IPO?
Joel (20:25.369)
Yep.
Chad (20:36.473)
I don't think so. think the IPO is dead for iCims and all the information I'm receiving is that they're making themselves look good for an acquisition, which is probably a much better move versus the IPO. Unfortunately, those layoffs dramatically reduce footprint in Europe, which is a big problem, especially if I'm a global customer or a prospect. Plus iCims
Joel (20:55.47)
Mm
Chad (21:01.525)
land and expand global growth strategy is now out the window because having an estimated half the staff in Europe to support sales and service operations is not attractive for US companies with a global footprint. So if I'm an investor or a buyer, the moves that I'm seeing them make right now is more focused on retained business, cut costs, and growth outside the US is purely optional. Right now on the smart recruiter side of the house,
Joel (21:14.894)
Mm
Chad (21:30.581)
Man, the train has been off the tracks for years. Like most founders, Jerome could only take the company so far and he did a good job in that task. Then the board hired Michael D. Simone, which you talked about earlier, a guy with tons of business.
He had tons of business and leadership experience in a variety of industries, but no experience in the HR tech industry. He was around for just a year, which was long enough to be a part of the botched iCIMS acquisition and injected right after the botch. Now,
For me, here's the big difference between ISOMs and smart recruiters. Smart recruiters learned from their mistakes. They hired a CEO with deep industry experience and connections. She knows what's wrong with the tech, product, go to market, because she served in all those areas of the business in the industry, right? It's critical for both of these organizations, you know, and I've been critical.
Joel (22:06.958)
Mm
Joel (22:13.016)
Hmm.
Chad (22:29.445)
about both these organizations over the years because I love them both. We've both grew up with iCIMs, right? And we both know smart recruiters and we've talked to Jerome and we've known people in those organizations the entire time, which is why we've been so critical and hard on them. But the problem is I only feel like smart recruiters is learning from their mistakes. Again, hopefully we'll get a chance to talk with Jason and we'll find out. I want to drop this bomb though.
Joel (22:33.27)
Yeah, we do. Yep.
Joel (22:50.892)
Mm
Chad (22:59.173)
probably one of the most best run.
companies in our space is paradox. And that's due to the founder having deep experience and history in the business. Now, the new CEO started as a recruiter and he worked his way up through the ranks in RPO and technology. And he's forgotten more about recruiting and talent than any other CEO in this space. when any investor is listening to this podcast, I think it's really important for them to understand that making
Joel (23:05.358)
Mm
Joel (23:28.578)
Mm
Chad (23:32.938)
the package look pretty is one thing. Making something inside worth a shit is something entirely different. You need to have a full, full package with a proper gift inside. Like, I don't know, maybe some chicken cocks.
Hahaha
Joel (23:51.906)
You know, part of the irony of us talking about these two companies is that they should have been, acquired or they should have merged, by this point. rumors have it that ISIM was looking to buy smart recruiters. This was when the IPO looked like it was going to be something, that was going to come to fruition. w the story that I heard was that the due diligence kind of came up short.
Chad (23:59.919)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad (24:06.821)
Yep.
Chad (24:15.471)
Mm
Joel (24:15.496)
there was a little bit of a bill of goods, a lot, a lot of phantom, products and customers and things like that, that weren't actually there. This is rumored stuff. This is all alleged, but the deal, if it was going to happen, didn't happen because of that. Fast forward to today, we talked about the CEOs. We talked about the volatility of the organizations, but on the surface, they are very similar to each other. They both take a lot of money. Smart recruiters has taken a lot more money. I sense has about double the head count.
Chad (24:41.627)
Mm
Joel (24:44.494)
which is smart recruiters is clearly doing more with less in terms of head count. they both, they both been growing slowly. so they haven't been spiking or, or, you know, crashing by any, by any account. The difference to me is, and I'll use an old sports analogy, you're either playing to win or you're playing not to lose. And what I'm seeing from smart recruiters.
Chad (25:07.525)
Preventing defense.
Joel (25:09.986)
is yeah, you're good. A good offense is the best or the best. A good defense is a good offense or whatever your whatever yours is. But in smart recruiters, I see a company that's looking to win. I see a company that's like, we're going to put in place who who knows what they're doing. We're going to spend a little coin to brand rebrand, get get ourselves back on a footing that we can look at either acquisition or maybe IPO way down the road. I don't know, but they look like they're
putting in the A team, putting in the resources to build something for the longterm. iSems feels to me like we don't want to lose. And this may be run by Vista who we know is private equity. They are very cutthroat. Like they see what's going on with Apollo and others in this space. Like let's cut head count, let's cut expenses and maybe we chop this thing up. They have some really good properties that they've acquired over the years.
Chad (25:50.245)
Mm -hmm.
Chad (26:02.831)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (26:04.074)
opening and texture crude and things like, so they have properties that they could start chopping up or like you said, sell to SAP, sell to a bigger foot fish. maybe part of cutting Europe is like, well, we're going to sell it to somebody who's in Europe anyway. Let's cut those people loose. We're not that strong in Europe as it is. ultimately for me, two companies that are very similar, but one is playing to win. The other's playing like, let's not lose. That's my take.
Chad (26:31.033)
Yeah, yeah. Call that the prevent defense. And let me tell you kids, anybody watching football, American football hates fucking prevent defense. And you even hate it watching European football when you're not trying to score, you're trying to pull back and just play defense and you're not attacking. That's the most boring shit in the world. And you're not playing to win. You're right, Joel.
Joel (26:52.204)
Yep. You know what happens when you play not to win.
Chad (27:00.589)
Good day, sir.
Joel (27:02.914)
We'll be right back.
Joel (27:07.47)
All right, Chad, we talked about Amazon last week. AWS, which I'm sure will come up in the comments, but, Amazon queue, company's generative AI assistant has drastically reduced software upgrade time, saving the equivalent of you ready for this 4 ,500 developer years, years of work, not hours. This efficiency not only saved time, but also enhanced security and reduced costs according to the company leading to an estimated 260 million.
Chad (27:13.382)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Chad (27:27.589)
Jesus.
Joel (27:36.526)
in annual savings. Amazon CEO Andy Jassy emphasized the transformative impact of AI on software development with plans to further expand Amazon Q's capabilities. Chad, $260 million would buy a lot of beers. What are your thoughts on Amazon Q?
Chad (27:56.219)
Well, here are my calculations. So 450 or 4 ,500 years times 2 ,080 hours in a year, and that's a 40 hour work week per year, times $62 per hour, which is the hourly wage, the average hourly wage of an Amazon engineer. That's close to $600 million, $580 million plus.
in savings right out of the gate. So close to $600 million in savings thanks to Amazon Q. There's a part of the story that they didn't tell and that is hand in glove with the AWS story that we talked about last week. Amazon Web Services CEO Matt Garman said the quiet part out loud when he said during a internal fireside chat quote.
If you go forward 24 months from now or some amount of time, I can't exactly predict when it is. It's possible that most developers are not coding, end quote. So how much will Amazon save in cutting engineer headcount? That's another part of the story. Here's the bigger part of the story that I don't think anybody's talking about. Amazon queue is a product.
So when chat GPT is making money off of $20 a month subscriptions, Amazon is looking at the bigger picture, providing every company with Amazon Q developers. That's where the fucking cash is. So when we take a look at the chat GPT and, look, they're making money off of, you know, this this tactical kind of like storefront thing. fuck no. Amazon's not playing games. They're going to make the cash.
Joel (29:17.166)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (29:43.97)
You went deep on that one and you said cut head count.
Chad (29:47.003)
Yes.
Joel (29:49.792)
I don't know that there's much I can add to what you said. I could put out numbers for you in terms of savings, but the real picture here and Amazon has history in this. When Amazon launched web services, AWS, a lot of people were like, what the hell? Why would they loan out their servers? Well, the jokes on the critics because it's a huge business in and of itself.
Chad (30:02.053)
Yeah.
Chad (30:10.159)
Yeah? Yeah?
Joel (30:16.718)
So Amazon has a history of looking at, Hey, what do we do that we can then productize and sell to other businesses? And by the way, Amazon queue is going to be a real easy add on to AWS. Like a no brainer, 30 days free, try it out. And then you have tons of companies, large and small that are already using AWS are now potentially using Amazon queue.
Chad (30:17.071)
Mm -hmm.
Chad (30:22.659)
Yeah, so smart.
Chad (30:30.64)
Yes.
Chad (30:43.621)
Yeah.
Joel (30:44.098)
to check their code, to write their code, to create efficiencies just like Amazon did. And that is the real story because when we talk about replacing engineers, not needing as many developers, like this is real and it's coming to fruition probably quicker than you thought it would because the big Goliaths are creating these products and they're going to release them out in the world because they're going to make money, tons of money on this stuff. The real loser on this is developers.
Chad (30:57.765)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (31:13.324)
particularly experienced ones that are getting replaced by junior developers that can become really senior because of AI. It's going to hurt recruiters who has made, let's, let's be honest, a very good living placing engineers for the last two, three decades. Like they're going to have to adapt to a very changing world. Companies like Upwork and Fiverr that make a lot of money on contracting developers. That may be a blind spot for them that they're not going be able to.
charge so many for, to charge so much for an hour, charges many hours. So this, this has huge, this is a big, big stone being thrown in a big ocean. That's going to create a lot of waves and a lot of different areas. And we're going to keep up on this and keep track of it because Amazon is really blazing a trail, partly saying that the quiet stuff out loud and then partly saying like, Hey, look at our numbers guys. They're going to drop this thing as a product and it is going to be a huge deal.
Google's going to follow suit. Microsoft is going to follow suit. They're all going to have these developer efficiency tools that's going to make companies a lot more money, which will make Chad happy because stock buybacks and all kinds of other stuff that'll make him, him giddy. But yeah, this is a huge story and it's just starting. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Chad (32:11.715)
Mm -hmm.
Chad (32:18.838)
fuck yeah.
Chad (32:25.167)
Well, and think of it. the internet was the first layer of infrastructure, right? And then we go into cloud computing. That's the next layer of infrastructure. Well, what's the problem with any type of tech? Well, you have tech debt. You have a ton of maintenance. You've got to fix that. Well, if we're in AWS,
And our tech is in our codes already factored for, you know, what the web services, we already have developers in queue that can better factored for all of this to be able to go in update and upgrade and provide maintenance and do a lot of things to save a lot of hours, years for these companies. So I mean, yeah, this is to me, I don't believe a couple of different things. First off, this is kind of like pushing backward.
into the maintenance side of the house, being able to push development forward is an entirely different story. But just for the maintenance piece of it though, every fucking company is going to need to have this. And if you're currently on Azure, well, you better fucking be pushing this. Microsoft, you better start creating this shit too. If you're on Google, cloud services, you'd better start having this too, because if you don't, people are going to just jump over to AWS.
Joel (33:17.55)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (33:36.248)
Mm -hmm.
Chad (33:43.545)
because they have those services available and they can save you so much money and so much time.
Joel (33:48.78)
AWS is huge. this is a layup. We don't make stock recommendations on this show, but, you might want to look at Amazon as a long term play, which leads us to Chad. Buy or sell time. We'll tell if some of these are going to be long -term buys. This is how we play kids. We talk about three companies that have recently gotten money. I read a summary, Chad and I both say if we're a buy or sell on these companies, let's play a little buy or sell. Shall we?
Chad (33:51.141)
You
Chad (34:14.479)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (34:18.126)
First up is Pangem. Hopefully I'm saying that right. Pangea, when all the continents were together and I just added an hopefully that's right. Anyway, the San Francisco based company has secured $4 .25 million in seed funding. The funds will be used to expand operations and further development of its platform. Pangem offers, ready for this, analytics that help businesses optimize office spaces, improve.
resource management and boost workplace efficiency by analyzing spatial and social data. Chad, are you a buyer cell of Pangem?
Chad (34:54.171)
I have two points here. Number one, this is predicated on in -office work. This is more of like a pre -pandemic kind of company, it sounds like. And then number two, it's big brother as fuck. I mean, I cannot. I cannot sell this fast enough. Two easy points, in -office work, we're moving toward hybrid remote, and it's just, it's way too big brother for me. That's a sell.
Joel (35:05.602)
Mm -hmm.
Joel (35:22.872)
Wow.
Joel (35:28.504)
All right. I am fascinated by this, by this idea and this company, the idea that you can like sort of look at an office where the most efficient parts of the office, you know, the water cooler, nothing gets done there. Right. So like kind of take that mentality and then, your control point. Well, companies love control. They love watching what you're doing. and if they have more silent offices, if they have more we works around the world, like
Chad (35:31.695)
You
Chad (35:46.671)
Mm.
Joel (35:56.46)
Being able to see what's going on from an efficiency and productivity standpoint. Well, sign me up for that baby because I love watching what all my people are doing and making sure that they're efficient. they added, a former Google workplace analyst. So apparently this is a thing, apparently big companies that are smart, analyze workplace productivity. Anyway, a former Google workplace analyst is joining, the startup, which to me is a big plus.
Chad (36:14.896)
Mm.
Joel (36:23.278)
So I'm fascinated by this. think it's really, really cool. companies love this shit. So I am a buy on Panjim Panjim. All right. That is our first, first contestant. Chad and I don't agree. Imagine that. All right, let's get to Micro One. they've increased their valuation to $80 million following a recent funding round that raised $3 .3 million. Not quite sure how they went. 80 million from 3 .3.
Chad (36:34.593)
and GM, GM, something.
Joel (36:52.302)
But hey, investors include Motley Fool Ventures among others previously Micro One, which touts itself as a recruitment engine to hire deeply vetted engineers fast at a $30 million valuation after raising 2 million in pre -seed funding. co the company also manages compliance, global payroll and employee benefits. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Micro One?
Chad (37:18.021)
So Indeed is trying to get into this market and they're failing because they're a jack of all and master of none. But what that demonstrates to me is market validation in the tech market. Indeed sees the market signals. They're executing poorly, which is great for companies like Micro One, Hackerank, and Hackajob. Plus Micro One is going down funnel with, as you said, compliance payroll benefits, which is
why their valuation exploded. This is what happens when a job site is disciplined enough and adds relevant services, not fucking SMS job alerts from a fucking guy named Phil. Micro One is a buy.
Joel (38:05.822)
All right. We may disagree on all of these today. Let's see what happens. Okay. So there, there was a time when a business like this was a total slam dunk. everyone needed engineer engineering talent and they would write blank texts, blank checks, excuse me, to solutions that could maybe help them find hidden gems. lot of those companies have gone by the wayside sourcing tools that we've talked about, quite a bit on the show. these.
Chad (38:09.71)
You
Joel (38:33.07)
skills just aren't as in demand. Let's go back to our Amazon IQ story as they used to be. You look at companies like Hackajob, they've decreased headcount about 20 % over the last couple of years. Seekout is down almost 25 % in the same period. It's really hard to be bullish on a platform or service solution that makes its money on engineers. If they decide to pivot to healthcare, I'm all in.
But right now it's really hard to get behind a company that is helping find engineers, even if they throw in shit like onboarding and payroll services, et cetera. So for me, this one, this one is a, a pretty, pretty aggressive sell for me. Wow. Two disagreements in a row. Can it be three? I don't think so. I kind of know how we feel about Africa, but anyway, here we go. Workpay, a Kenyan company providing a cloud -based HR.
payroll and benefits platform has secured 5 million in series a funding. The investment was led by Norscan 22 with contributions from Y Combinator and even our friends at Acadian Ventures. This funding comes after a $2 .7 million pre -series A round last year. They serve over 1000 customers in 20 African countries having recently added 500 new businesses. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Workpay?
Chad (40:01.691)
Did you say foreskin 22? Anyway, welcome to the new world kids. Big companies will not be able to identify, understand and deliver a product to the market faster than a small and more nimble startup.
That's where we're going, especially in the case where Africa is big and underdeveloped. It's a huge market. Big companies can try to adapt their already expensive solutions to the market, but they won't find companies that can afford said products where Workpay, what a fucking great name, by the way, they can.
Much like Micro One, but in geographic sense, instead of industry, WorkPay is offering relevant down funnel services like medical and car insurance. Deal acquired PaySpace earlier this year. Look for WorkPay acquisition in the next, I don't know, 12 to 18 months. This is definitely a buy for me.
Chad (41:02.238)
hahahaha
Joel (41:03.886)
So we recently interviewed Jason Garcello at Acadian Ventures. If you haven't listened to that show, you should. It's a great interview. Jason's a great guy. And he revealed to us how many pitches they get per year, how many actually get sort of money from that. And it's a very, let's call it deep dive into these businesses. And you know that for me, when I see that Acadian has invested in somebody like that gets my attention because I know the vetting that goes on.
Chad (41:34.202)
Yeah.
Joel (41:34.452)
with those guys. so work pay just being there, has bonus points for me. work pay, you love the name, although it auto corrects to work day, on my, on my computer. that's probably, I don't know here or there, maybe that's a subliminal work day. You need to bias a message to work day pay anyway. to me, this is more than anything, a demographic story. look, Africa is in a good place. They are a young country.
They're growing by a hundred million people every three years. So every decade they become an America in terms of population growth. Businesses are going there. Countries are fighting out for, for getting a stake in the country is getting investment. talk about capital going into the country. Like you're going to have to try hard to fail in Africa. If you're, if you're a, if you're a, if you're a startup that knows what, what you're doing.
Chad (42:03.247)
Yes.
Joel (42:29.144)
There are geopolitical risks in Africa. there's a lot of shit going on, but if they can get that stuff, right, these companies are going to blow up. and there's a much better chance that work pay cash is in, then they fail. So for me, this also is a strong buy. Well, two out of three ain't bad, Chad. We disagreed on two out of three. Let's, let's come back and talk some, let's talk some chicken when we get back.
Joel (43:02.86)
All right, Chad, we talked about Chick -fil -A last week. It's a twofer. They're back. We talked about Chicken from Heaven last week. Chicken on a conveyor belt comes down from the sky, which was fun. If you missed it, check out last week's podcast. Anyway, Chick -fil -A is back. They're developing a streaming platform. That's right. I said that correctly. A Netflix, Disney Plus, Hulu type streaming platform featuring mostly unscripted family friendly shows and is in discussion for both original content.
Chad (43:06.212)
Mm
Joel (43:32.526)
and acquisitions. They've already ordered a 10 episode game show. Can't wait for that excitement. The move reflects a broader trend of non -media companies entering the streaming market, similar to Lyft and Airbnb who had shows on streaming services. Chick -fil -A with over 3000 locations aims to leverage its brand in a shrinking reality TV market. Chad, grab a chicken sandwich and tell me what you think about Chick -fil -A's new streaming service.
Chad (44:02.619)
So content companies like NBC Universal can't even get this right and they have three CEOs. So I'm supposed to believe that Jesus, Jesus Chicken Company can get it right. Give me a fucking break. mean, it's just, they obviously have too much money and they need to do something with that money. So they're going to try to create advertising vehicles that go into the streaming services.
It sounds wonderful. Somebody sold them a bill of goods, but I do not see this working out very well.
You
Joel (44:40.654)
So I can, I can hear the boardroom now. I can hear the idea session. now, you know, guys, our customers always talk about the wholesome programming is gone. You know, there's no more Andy Griffith on, on TV. Like we, should, they, they want us to bring that back. They love, they trust Chick -fil -A to have wholesome, wholesome chicken. We should give them some whole wholesome content as well. How stupid is this? we said Zip recruiter was dumb by launching a podcast because
Chad (45:06.737)
Hahaha
Joel (45:09.998)
corporations can't do media. they're boring. they just, they just don't do it very well. You don't, that's why the Kelsey's and Joe Rogan like make money because people that do media know how to do media. The real question, it's going to fail for sure. There's no question. 10 years from now, there will not be a Chick -fil -A streaming service. I promise. I would put my entire retirement on that. What's dangerous though is the, the, the brand is
Chad (45:32.186)
you
Joel (45:39.916)
Let's admit it's pretty golden with their customers. Okay. The chicken is great. That's why I love it. But the, the, the moral, like people love it. Okay. You put in a streaming service, what could go wrong? Okay. What if there's a data breach and everyone's, you know, data gets sold to whatever. What if, what if one of their stars in a show becomes a serial killer or a Satanist or who knows what, right? Like that's a real danger to the brand.
Chad (45:42.575)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joel (46:10.036)
What if, what if someone hacks the network and start streaming pornography on the Chick -fil -A streaming service? These, these folks know they, they know chicken. They don't know media. Like this is just bound to fail. It's such a, it's almost a joke. I couldn't believe it was a real story. And, and, and, and speaking of joke, Chad, that's right. That's right.
Chad (46:16.731)
just waiting for the first sex tape to come out from one of these.
Nah. No. No.
Joel (46:37.73)
What do you call a cow with no legs?
Joel (46:43.17)
Ground beef.
Chad (46:45.023)
That's good.
Joel (46:46.284)
What do you call a grass -fed cow?
A lawn mooer
Chad (46:54.041)
Okay, that was bad. That was really bad.
Joel (46:56.578)
What do you call a cow in an earthquake?
Chad (47:01.775)
A moog milkshake.
Joel (47:03.382)
Yes, good job, Chad. You got one right. And with that, we out.
Chad (47:08.708)
We out.
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