Jim McCoy, CEO of Atlas, joins the Chad and Cheese podcast to discuss the rise of Employee of Record (EOR) platforms and the future of remote work. McCoy explains that EOR platforms help companies employ people in countries where they don't have a legal entity, supporting global mobility and recruitment. He also discusses the convergence of EOR and staffing, the challenges of safeguarding intellectual property in the gig economy, and the normalization of salaries based on cost of living. McCoy believes that the success of competitors in the EOR space is beneficial for the entire industry, and he envisions an ecosystem that supports recruiters and helps them find the best candidates.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION (AI made me do it)
Joel Cheesman (00:27.265)
What's up boys and girls, it's your favorite guilty pleasure aka the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheeseman joined as always. Chad. So wash is in the house as we welcome Jim McCoy, CEO at Atlas gym. Welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast.
JIm McCoy (00:45.361)
Hey, thanks Joel. Thanks Chad. Happy to be here with you today.
Joel Cheesman (00:49.813)
You're very welcome, very welcome. A lot of our listeners won't know who you are. We'll get to the company in a second, but tell us a little about Jim McCoy.
Chad Sowash (00:51.81)
Very happy.
JIm McCoy (01:00.949)
Yeah, great. Well, to answer Chad's question though, a little scared too, but very happy. But hey, I'm Jim McCoy. It's such a pleasure to be with you. I spent 20 years in the recruitment space, leading recruitment outsourcing business at Manpower Group, building one for Fidelity Investments before that. Spent a little time in the recruitment marketplace area with company called Scout. And about seven months ago, I joined this cool little place called Atlas.
that's not in the recruitment space, but really does a lot to support recruitment happening around the world. So we can talk about that as we go along.
Chad Sowash (01:35.401)
It classified as an EOR, right? Employee of Record Platform. Okay, okay. Yeah, those things are blowing up for God's sakes. So you in your background, before we get into today's topic, I just have to throw this at you, Jim. So what do you think about Indeed's step into staffing? You were in staffing, you understand that space. What do you think about Indeed's, the tech, actually stepping into staffing?
Joel Cheesman (01:57.089)
Straight for the jugular. Straight for the jugular. There we
JIm McCoy (01:59.221)
Yeah, mean, gosh, I knew you were going to throw me some hardballs here. So it makes all the sense in the world. I mean, they're owned by one of the largest recruiting companies that no one's ever heard of. And everything makes sense. And if you kind of look at what's happening in the tech software space for recruiting, it's the people that own the data that have the most power at this point.
Chad Sowash (02:04.556)
Ha ha
Chad Sowash (02:28.344)
Yeah.
JIm McCoy (02:29.161)
So I think it makes a ton of sense. And I think they're going to be a force to be reckoned with. if I were in this space, I'd be kind of thinking about what's my response going to be and how am going do something different to attract candidates and be a better employer.
Chad Sowash (02:44.248)
Whoo, that's a big one, kids. See, right out of the gate. Right out of the gate. Right out of the gate. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, something else that's incredibly important is being able to hire all over the world and EOR companies, much like Atlas, you've been able to help companies do that. And you've got many different ways in how you can actually aid in the prospect of something like that and especially growing the footprint across, you know,
Joel Cheesman (02:45.621)
He's saying we were right, Chad. He's saying we were right, I think, is what he's saying.
JIm McCoy (02:47.4)
You
Chad Sowash (03:14.324)
Europe, for instance, right? It's a little bit different going from state to state. Maybe we can talk about that, but then also going from country to country in Europe. So talk a little bit about what you're saying from a landscape standpoint and companies being able to really spread out and look at like no borders recruiting type of
JIm McCoy (03:32.149)
Yeah, so that's great. It's a great question. During the EOR industry or employer of record and just for listeners, basically what we do is we employ people in countries where you don't have a legal entity. And Atlas just happens to do it in 160 different countries. And so there are a couple pieces of that. So one is simply just, I have someone who's really great, who happens to sit
Rwanda, can you bring them on your payroll and they can work for me? So almost like you'd work with a PEO in the US. Or I have, I'm trying to expand into a new market and I want to send someone that's like a trusted, you know, person on my team into a new market. Can you employ them effectively, second them and employ them and sponsor them for the visas? And so Atlas does that in about 85 countries right now too. So it's really in support of global mobility.
Chad Sowash (04:04.971)
Mm
JIm McCoy (04:27.465)
as companies grow, it's also in support of, know, EORs are great support for how do I get the very best people? I really don't care where they work because despite all the talk about return to office, most companies still want the very best person and they're oftentimes, more often than not, willing to accommodate a location preference. as we think about the recruiting opportunity here, recruiters that I've worked with over the years,
they have never limited themselves to national boundaries. They are always thinking about where do I find the best people and the best recruiters are gonna tell you right out of the gate, if this is what you're looking for, this is where you should be recruiting them. so we find ourselves working with a lot of recruiters who are looking for ways to maybe hire an interim executive or hire an executive for a company or hire great tech talent or merchandisers and marketers and creatives.
and they're looking for a way to get them employed and they don't want the same old kind of temp contractor, you know, type of employment because that leaves them exposed to risk and it leaves their employees exposed to risk. So what they want is, is employ this person like they were a real employee, give them benefits, give them all the things that are going to make them want to stay with me as an employer and, but just do it where I don't have, I legally can't do it for
what's interesting about this space is that it's, I would say it's probably kind of, there's always been a form of it, but I would say it really started to take off about 10 years ago, nine, 10 years ago. And the pandemic really accelerated the pace because you had people just, you know, they were, they were in all sorts of locations. They had to take care of family members and a lot of companies wanted to have an EO our solution to accommodate.
the needs of key employees as they maybe have had to be in a different country to take care of parents or that sort of thing. Or simply because they couldn't go into an office so they chose to work in different areas. So the industry really took off. As of today, we estimate about 200 ,000 people work in an EOR.
JIm McCoy (06:40.693)
And if you aggregate all the salaries, it's probably somewhere in the range of about $40 billion in salaries that are processed by EOR. So you think about the economic impact of that. It's really growing and pretty substantial.
Joel Cheesman (06:54.021)
And what a decade it's been, right, Jim? You guys, you guys are founded in 15. You've raised $220 million. You were one of many companies in this space that rode the wave of the pandemic, raised a ton of money. We talk a lot about many of them on the show. How does, how does that group of companies
Chad Sowash (06:57.722)
Good God.
Joel Cheesman (07:15.809)
play out? there going to be a Coke and a Pepsi and maybe a couple of Fantas and the rest go by the wayside? Obviously, we talk about Deal a lot on the show as being a success in this in sort of your space, but like, I'm curious as an insider, how do you see this thing shaking
JIm McCoy (07:32.883)
Yeah, I think there are a few things. I liken us to the staffing business a little bit, except in the EOR space, there's more barrier to entry. If you're in staffing and recruiting, and recruiting in particular, so let's just say people who focus on search, what you're really banking on is your ability to build and use a network that you have and to continue to grow that network over time.
There's no specific capital requirement to get into it. mean, unless you want to get into staffing and then you have to float payrolls, that's a different story. But in EOR, it's a little bit different because it can be very onerous to set up an entity in a country and manage it and be compliant. And so I think what you're going to see in this space is that you'll see a lot of upstarts. They're all going to focus on the same markets. So there are some markets where it's easier to do that than others.
But to really build out the compliance infrastructure that you need to be able to do this, it's not so much the technology, it's really the compliance infrastructure that's like the kind of the game changer here. I think a lot of companies are gonna find that hard to do. So I think what you'll see is a lot of them will open because there's been a lot of momentum in the VC and the PE space around funding these startups. But I think eventually you're gonna see some consolidation. The other thing is if you talk to the analysts, what they're gonna tell you is,
Chad Sowash (08:33.058)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (08:49.357)
Mm -hmm.
JIm McCoy (08:55.731)
A lot of the people getting into the EOR space, they really come from a FinTech background because they're looking at everything as a payment. And that's how I make my money is on the payment. They're not necessarily thinking about, I make my money as a human capital provider or an HR services provider. And so it's a different mindset. It's a different way of thinking. And I think ultimately that's what's going to differentiate the ones who are the winners and the ones who are losers. So to your point, or the ones who are, I'm not going to call them losers. Let's say the ones who get absorbed.
I don't think you're going to end up with two dominant providers. think you're going to, it's still going to be a more, there's going to be a lot more competition on the market, but it's not necessarily going to explode the way like we have 20 ,000 staffing firms globally.
Chad Sowash (09:33.73)
Mm -hmm.
Joel Cheesman (09:39.881)
Okay. want go back to your comment about return to office and that we're not doing that anymore, but I want to get your perspective on what, what, what's the percentage? Certainly it's not a hundred percent, out of, you know, virtual. and, and also what are you seeing from a perspective of like the gig economy? How many are just sort of leaning on fiber and upwork for outsourcing folks and where does geopolitics
play into companies' current decisions. I'm guessing a lot of people aren't outsourcing to Ukraine at the moment or the Middle East, right? So what are you seeing on a geopolitical side of that as
JIm McCoy (10:16.884)
Yeah.
JIm McCoy (10:21.053)
Well, let me answer that in reverse order on the geopolitical side. So one thing, I've spent a lot of my time personally working on refugee resettlement, especially out of Ukraine, Venezuela, Cuba, Haiti, Afghanistan. It did a lot of work with welcome .us, which was helping to relocate people to the US. What I can tell you that Atlas did is that people who are leaving Ukraine for safety, we were able to help get them employed in other countries. So as they were moving into a new country,
relocating to get out of war zones, get away from war zones, particularly if they were in the south and the east of Ukraine. We were able to get them jobs with employers right away and take advantage of those skill sets, create an income for them, enable them to have as close to normalcy as is humanly possible in a situation like that. I think geopolitics, if
think about kind of shifts in immigration policies and things like that. If nothing else, that's going to drive more need for EOR because talent is fungible even if it's really difficult for people to move. companies are going to say, I want the best developers. I don't care where they are. If I can't get them here, I'm willing to accommodate them where they are. And just please help me employ them. Get them.
get them healthcare and that sort of thing, make them feel as much like a regular employee as possible.
Chad Sowash (11:44.662)
Well, what we see, don't you believe we'll see a convergence with EOR and staffing? Because you've got the front end and then you've got all the compliance mechanisms that are there as well. I mean, they are by themselves, they are humongous businesses, both of them, right? So together, I mean, you're creating an entire, I mean, just a Titan for God's sakes. So do you see that happening or has it already started to happen, convergence?
JIm McCoy (11:51.049)
Okay.
JIm McCoy (12:13.447)
It's definitely starting to happen. where you're seeing it the most, Chad, is in large enterprises who are saying, like, I want to look at my extended workforce in its entirety. And some of those people are going to be people I hire through, a lot of those people are going to be people I hire through temporary staffing firms. Some of them are to be people who are working for me through a BPO. And some of them are going to be people that are working me through an EOR. And so, but it's starting to become a lot more fungible.
So like back to Joel's question about gig work, what we're seeing is people who might have like signed up for gig work with a company, a company saying, I want to lock them in. They're touching my IP every day. Like let me make them a regular employee and let me, and let me give them a sense of security, but let me also give myself a sense of security that they're going to stick with me for a while. And that, and that they're not going to take the things that they worked on, you know, on Fiverr and just replicate it for the very, for my competitor who might be the very next gig they
Chad Sowash (13:10.678)
That's that's interesting. Being able to to I guess in a couple of different ways. And let's talk about this now breaking apart gig work versus FTE because for forever we've had an employer. Right now we have an employer. We have projects on the side. We have side hustles. We have all these different things. What. Can a company do to try to safeguard? mean, because, you know, just because.
I was working on a project, it doesn't mean that, you know, that's IP, because maybe I came up with it on my off hours, and I was doing it during my side hustle, this is going to get incredibly gray, because of the way that it seems like the world of work is actually evolving, you might have a full time job, but you might have two or three side hustles.
JIm McCoy (13:59.453)
Yeah, no, it's that that so that is totally accurate. But if you think about an employee's choices that they have to make, where are they going to dedicate their time? And and also more importantly, especially when it comes to IP and tech work. Whose assets am I going to be using to build things on? That's what is going to matter to employers. So I don't find employers as focused on does the person have a side hustle?
I think to your point, that's natural. you know, no ever really knows how many employees actually work for DoorDash on the side or Uber on the side in the US. Lots of people probably do. mean, well, we know hundreds of thousands of people do actually. And many of them
Joel Cheesman (14:40.214)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (14:42.946)
But what about a marketing person, who also does something that's similar on Fiverr, right? You know what I mean? There are some perspective crossovers in the Venn diagram,
JIm McCoy (14:54.345)
Yeah, no, it's true. And I think what you're getting to is policy and compliance. So if your policy is you can work for me and you can't work for anyone else, then you're going to need somebody to help you be vigilant at monitoring that. It's going to be very hard, you can do it. But it is very difficult. I think IP
is such a, such an important asset to so many places to your point, like you're coming up with creative concepts for me, but then maybe like pitching some version of that to someone else on Fiverr, that's probably not the best business model for a company to keep. And I think that's where, if I talk to our clients in the tech space, that's what they're thinking about, which is like, let me just lock this person down full time. So I'm not, I'm hopefully not dealing with those issues, not that they can't arise, but, but, but when they arise, they become my
and then I am the one, and my team is taking those issues on. And fortunately, we've had very good adherence.
Chad Sowash (15:57.368)
way that we grew up as you know, whether you're our parents, the boomers or your Gen X or what have you, it literally was a job. And for them, it was a job for life, even their parents, the greatest generation, it was a job for life and just not the way it is now. So the loyalty is not there. So I think policing that is going to be incredibly hard. Number one, number two, to be able to actually lock somebody down and say you can't work for anybody else. I think those days are gone.
I think those are totally gone. understanding the whole compliance aspect, and there are so many different layers of compliance, but trying to be big brother per se and see exactly what every single one of your employees are doing, I almost think that that's like herding cats and we're not going to be able to get there. Or do you think that we will be able
JIm McCoy (16:47.067)
I think it's like herding cats. think that's a very good analogy. But I think that you're pointing out something really interesting, which is that people aren't as loyal to companies as they used to be. But part of that's because they can't necessarily count on a company being their forever employer anymore. I mean, I'm thinking about my dad who spent an entire career with one company and every two, three years had an expansion in responsibilities or a new responsibility, lateral moves.
It's harder for companies to do that. and, and, you know, we, we live in a, in a society globally that is like really responsive to a dopamine rush. So if we're not constantly providing new opportunities for people to grow and learn and do something new, like they're going to lose, they're going to lose interest. it's, and HR tech indeed, kind of going back to the beginning of the conversation is a big piece of
has made it really easy to find other opportunities. And people know when they're in a skill set that is in high demand and they're going to have, they're taking advantage of that latitude with their employers, but then also with their ability to constantly keep networked and figure out what is that next thing that I could potentially do if this ultimately becomes boring or uninteresting. It's hard for employers, but it's a great opportunities for workers.
Joel Cheesman (17:46.902)
Mm
Joel Cheesman (18:13.601)
quickly, Jim, on the remote piece of that, what percentage of companies that can go remote are going remote? Is it 25? Is it 50? 75? Just ballpark
JIm McCoy (18:22.869)
Yeah, would say, well, of our client base, it's a hundred percent, but I would say generally of companies that we talk to, I would say about 75 % of companies are totally open to remote work. And that I do think, I think what's happening is that you're seeing a boomerang in the return to office because return to office is expensive. So a lot of companies gave up real estate and now they're like, wait, do I have to sign up for new leases? Like, how's this going to
Joel Cheesman (18:35.841)
Okay.
JIm McCoy (18:49.941)
And so I think we're kind of like, see, we're going to get to some sort of an equilibrium. I mean, even before the pandemic, somewhere between 15 and 20 % of workers in the US worked remotely. And I mean, that's a march that's been going on forever. I think that's going to continue to happen. And the calculus is going to be, can generally, if I look at my total compensation for a person,
A piece of compensation is not having to pay for commute time, not having to pay for commute, not having to pay for all the stuff that you have to fund going into an office. And I think that becomes part of the compensation package. So that's like one of the many trade -offs an employer has.
Joel Cheesman (19:26.273)
And let's, let's, let's talk about compensation for a second, Jim, shall we? one of the debates that Chad and I had in the early days of the pandemic was, you know, should you, and could you pay a developer in Boston the same as you could, to a developer in Bangladesh? Chad was on the side of like, Hey, the salary should be equal no matter where you are in the world. Whereas I was on the other side of that. Where are we sort of ending up on salaries?
independent of where you are in the world doing the same
JIm McCoy (19:57.461)
Where I think we're headed, Joel, because we do a lot of work with our clients around salary normalization and what they should be paying in different markets, it's really, you're starting to see more convergence around what is the relative cost of living in a place and then the salary adjusts for that. So for instance, if you pay less in one particular market, it's because in general, they have the same quality of life. Like, let's say the base is $100 ,000, but you're paying $40 ,000 in another.
It's to maintain that hundred thousand dollar lifestyle in one market. You only need forty thousand dollars in another market And that's where I start to see the convergence I have seen some companies put in different different sorts of programs like for instance where you have Countries in Africa or Turkey or Argentina where you're where you have really high inflationary environments. I'm seeing companies
on a more dynamic basis look to do salary adjustments to keep and what they're focused on is not specifically what's the currency amount that we're paying the person, but what's the relative purchasing power that we're giving that person. I know we're thinking about like that for our core employees is I don't want my team to be locked into, I want them to get paid commensurate to their work and the best
benchmark I have for that is purchasing power. So that's what I'm using, not like Cola, not other other sorts of measures. I'm like trying to look at it in a more sophisticated way that's like, when I hired you, you were able to buy this much food, you were able to pay by, you know, by this much house, you were able to buy this much automobile. And I want to make sure that I maintain that and that you're getting continued growth as you continue to expand what you're able to
Chad Sowash (21:46.348)
Yeah, I totally get that. then also, you know what, it's really none of your business, Jim, because I'm going to live where I'm going to live. Now, this might be kind of like ivory tower thought process because I'm spending six months of my life here in Portugal. My dollar goes a lot longer, goes a lot further. But I could be doing this job from anywhere, from London, from right, and there are many people that do that.
and they could be somewhat digital nomads. And I would assume that you probably do with those individuals as well. The normalization, I like where you're talking about normalization, but do you think it's going to be harder to try to get somebody to literally say, you now, wait a minute, you just moved from Indianapolis to Portugal. Now we're going to cut your salary in half or the other way around, right? How
How does a company at this point, and again, there are so many shifting tectonic plates right now in this landscape, and it's very hard for employers to deal with. When you're dealing with those types of things, what are some of the guidance points that you're giving to them, not just for today, but to look toward tomorrow, because we really have to set employers up for success in the future. And I'm not sure that they are set, at least in their brain pan today, for what tomorrow's gonna
JIm McCoy (23:10.675)
Yeah, well, this kind of goes back to normalization, right? So the way I think about it, just from a transactional perspective is if I have someone, and we've had this, have actually have a client that I'm working with right now where they have this situation. They have an amazing data scientist who's in India. She wants to move to Germany because she wants her kids to be raised and go to German schools. She wants to have that opportunity for her family. And so, you know, the very first question we said is, okay, what's the quality of life that she has in India?
Chad Sowash (23:17.272)
Mm -hmm.
JIm McCoy (23:39.711)
How do you replicate that in Germany? Like understanding that she wants to make a personal choice. So there will be some sacrifices in it. But you also don't want her to like, she's not going to be able to exist in Germany probably on the same salary that she could live very well on in India. And so while you know that traveling around Europe, mean, just even the differences in the countries in Europe. what you have to do it from a lens is what is the relative value of that person in the country and in the market?
Chad Sowash (23:54.89)
God no.
JIm McCoy (24:09.545)
So my proclivity would always be to try and keep the person the same, especially if I'm not paying for the reload. They want to reload themselves. But I also have to be, I have to make sure they're compliant. have different kind of tax burdens, different sorts of responsibilities. So it's hard to make a blanket policy. I think you have to make it a little bit case by case. But on the other hand, because we're in the business of global mobility, like I have to make sure
that I have policies that are going to support people being able to move and accommodate their lifestyle. And a big piece of that is I'm not trying to reduce your base, but if I have, there might be some share of responsibility if I have a lot more statutory costs, for instance, in one market. And then I also know that market is, you know, particularly lower cost market. We might have to have a little bit of trade off there. The other thing, frankly, is in Europe, sorry, Joel,
Joel Cheesman (25:00.832)
Jim, assume as
JIm McCoy (25:05.811)
You have to also pay reasonably within what are like union standard or collective bargaining standard rates as well. you have to be very thoughtful market by market about how you address
Chad Sowash (25:21.654)
Right.
Joel Cheesman (25:23.755)
Jim is a Bostonian. I waited for you to stop there, make sure I didn't cut you off. As a Bostonian, I assume you're familiar with the phrase, a rising tide raises all boats. When you look at the sort of phenomenal growth of deal, are you inspired by that? Does it help your business overall or are there sleepless nights involved? Like how do you look at the success of deal and your own business and maybe the entire, the entire sector?
JIm McCoy (25:52.945)
All of our competitors are doing a great job of educating the market about what's possible. And that creates huge opportunity for me. So we go to market a little bit differently, but I leverage all of their advertising to help educate the consumer on what they can potentially do. So it is true in our particular case, a rising tide lifts all boats. think
the companies that are going to be the winners in the long term are the ones that really focus on that service experience from the, the, for the, from the employee perspective. And then from the client perspective, from the employee perspective, it's about, can I talk to a human and not a chat bot? And for the client perspective, it's is this company bringing me workforce insight that's going to help me be a better employer? And, and I don't see that consistently with my competitors happily.
Because that's someplace where we can be really successful and stand out But I'm grateful to all of them for all the advertising that they do and just as a funny point of factual deal deal put up a billboard right in front of our head office in Chicago and in a bus stop and I'm not gonna judge the ad per se. It's not what I would have done, but everyone No
Joel Cheesman (27:12.489)
Was it Atlas Sucks? Was that the ad? Atlas Sucks? Was that there? Okay.
JIm McCoy (27:16.243)
No, wasn't. know, they don't, they don't take it that far. But, but the funny thing was that the side of the bus stop that they put it on is not the side where anyone enters. So none of our employees actually saw it. And I think that was what they were going for. but you know, I'm happy to see it because all of that, you know, rippling is another great example. They advertise everywhere and, it starts to bring attention to the fact that you could be managing employees globally in a better way.
And I'm happy to pick up that conversation with anybody. So I appreciate all the advertising they're doing because long -term it's not sustainable as a business model. But in the short term, it's sure helping me get people smart on EOR and what they could do really quickly.
Joel Cheesman (28:00.033)
I love that story. I love you sharing that insight of the war, the little battles that go on that most people don't see are fantastic. Speaking of success, when are the IPO's coming? When is this ball going to drop? When are investors going to get their money back? When's the IPO parade going to
Chad Sowash (28:00.333)
I know
Chad Sowash (28:06.238)
Yeah.
JIm McCoy (28:07.21)
You
JIm McCoy (28:19.369)
Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think we're probably, you know, kind of in the three to five year of maturity range for this space. Apart from Deal, which Deal is really not just EOR, Deal is way beyond EOR and what they do. I don't know that any particular one of our competitors is at a revenue size that's compelling enough to go to IPO. I think we can continue to have good returns for our investors. That's what I'm personally focused on. Grow good quality business.
And more importantly, I think what I'm trying to do right now is build an ecosystem to support recruiters all over the place. I look at the recruiters I talk to are really struggling with this whole employment equation. Like I can hire a great person, but they don't sit where you sit. How can I employ them? And that's been an awesome opportunity for me. So I look at what we do as being like core to an ecosystem of helping recruiters be really successful and getting the best candidate.
and delivering that candidate for an employer. So that's kind of how we're working with employers. Now, I think ultimately that dimension, and as that is kind of like what we started off talking about with Indeed, those shifts are going to create, continue to accelerate growth in the industry. And that's going to get us much closer to that IPO point. I'm from Boston, so I sometimes confuse IPA and IPO.
Joel Cheesman (29:42.751)
IPA is what Chad will be having after this call because it's happy hour in Portugal. Happy hour in Portugal.
Chad Sowash (29:47.916)
That's right. Not so much. You got to remember Joel, a rising tide raises all boats, unless you're a startup that only builds anchors. That's Jim McCoy, CEO of Atlas, my friends. Now, Jim, if somebody wants to connect with you, where would you send
JIm McCoy (29:48.137)
That's right.
JIm McCoy (30:05.629)
Yep, they can come to atlashxm .com or they can reach out to me on LinkedIn, Jim McCoy, pretty easy to find. Or they could also just email me directly at jimm at atlashxm
Joel Cheesman (30:19.233)
Very nice. Damn it, Jim. Thanks for joining us today, Chad. That is another one in the can. We out.
JIm McCoy (30:25.769)
Thanks, guys.
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