Deel Spy Games Extended Cut
- Chad Sowash
- 3 minutes ago
- 50 min read
Corporate espionage, political meltdowns, and matching t-shirts—what more could you want?
This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast (featuring the always-fashionable Mo Wiley Clough), the gang dives into the dumbest spy drama since Austin Powers. Yes, Deel paid a payroll guy to snoop on Rippling… (Spoiler alert: he wasn’t exactly 007)
Meanwhile, Mo channels her inner Gryffindor, Chad is spiritually allergic to Cory Booker praise, and Joel just wants everyone to stream Real Genius on their next flight. Oh, and they bid farewell to Val Kilmer—icon, legend, fashion inspiration.
But wait, there’s more! We’ve got April Fool’s pranks, a filibuster fueled by desperation, Gavin Newsom talking to right-wing wackos, and a full-on economic apocalypse brought to you by tariffs, layoffs, and what experts are calling “a really stupid plan.”
If you love chaos, cursing, and conspiracy-level incompetence, this is your episode.
👉 Buckle up. It's like Succession meets The Office—if both were run by drunk toddlers.
Want it even shorter/snappier for platforms like Instagram or TikTok? Just say the word!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:39.086)
to run away high so we wouldn't come home low. kids, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Liberation Day Cheesman.
Maureen Wiley Clough (00:48.366)
And I'm, I'm Maureen AKA Mo. What the F is happening, Clough?
Chad (00:48.768)
I'm Chad. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
Chad (00:58.858)
And this is Chad, I'm your Huckleberry Sowash.
Joel (01:02.524)
On this episode, Deal's spy comes clean, the countdown on TikTok keeps ticking, and just another day in Trump World everybody!
Chad (01:06.175)
Ooh.
Chad (01:12.777)
No.
Joel (01:16.912)
Let's do this.
Chad (01:20.852)
So Mo, before you got on, I had to go change shirts because for the second day in a row, Joel and I were wearing the exact same shirt.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:27.469)
Oh, we can't have that. No, no.
Joel (01:27.708)
It's scary. It's scary.
Chad (01:30.14)
No, in the amount of t-shirts that we have, mean, just the, the likelihood of that happening. Ridiculous. Ridiculous.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:34.093)
Yeah.
I love it. I love it. I'll be your fashion advisor.
Joel (01:39.394)
It's scary. And it's usually a jersey, which in this case it was, he just altered another jersey. You should wear jerseys we don't have, like I don't have. I don't have the Portugal jerseys. But yesterday it was just like a plain grayish blue tee. that was totally random, totally random. Guaranteed I'll never have what Maureen's wearing because she's way more fashionable than I will ever, ever be.
Chad (01:44.831)
Yep.
Chad (01:50.08)
You
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:51.918)
Hahaha
Chad (01:55.22)
Yeah.
It was random.
Maureen Wiley Clough (02:01.422)
Thanks, I definitely am. 100%. It's weird because it feels like we should be excited because we've been liberated from what's in our bank accounts and our pantries and stuff. Yeah, exactly.
Chad (02:01.916)
Easily, easily. Looks like she's a wizard at Gryffindor.
Joel (02:07.462)
You guys are both in black. It's almost like you're in mourning. Did someone, someone pass recently that.
Chad (02:13.088)
Hmm.
Chad (02:19.072)
I think.
Joel (02:21.2)
The only thing liberated is my money and my...
Chad (02:23.653)
I think Val Kilmer was liberated from all of this bullshit, okay? So he died on April Fool's Day, which, RIP Val Kilmer.
Joel (02:29.092)
Yeah.
Joel (02:36.272)
which he played Morrison who's still in doubt of whether or not he's actually dead. So I don't know. This would be really, really poetic if Val just, you know, disappeared Jim Morrison style. But yeah, apparently in the hospital pneumonia, with his, I think his family and close friends around him, a real icon for, for gen X. mean, there's, there are some actors that are really connected to our generation, tombstone, the doors, top gun.
Maureen Wiley Clough (02:36.536)
rough.
Maureen Wiley Clough (02:42.594)
Wow. Plot twist.
Chad (02:46.728)
Yeah, doubtful.
Maureen Wiley Clough (02:53.678)
Wow. 65 is young.
Chad (03:01.149)
yeah.
Chad (03:05.011)
yeah. Heat with Pacino and De Niro.
Joel (03:06.266)
Like Chad, know, I know you're a big fan. were. And he, yeah, he like what, what's your favorite? Well, like some of your, your favorite Val Kilmer moments.
Chad (03:16.116)
So one of my favorites, because it was in 85 and I was a kid, was Real Genius. Not a great movie, not a great movie, but I really, I mean, as a kid, I just fucking loved it. But what I love, I definitely love my favorite movie is True Romance. I know it's more of a Christian Slater, Patricia Arquette movie, but I just love that, love that movie. The Saint was awesome too.
Joel (03:20.828)
Ugh.
It was a good movie.
Joel (03:37.818)
Elvis Ghost. Yeah, that was good.
Joel (03:46.192)
I don't know how you beat Tombstone for me. That was like, probably watched that every day for a year in college. just cause it's so great. The doors was fantastic. I Oliver Stone was at the top of his game. He like everything kind of clicked on that. I love real genius too, Chad. Like I was.
Chad (03:49.0)
It's hard. Yeah. Great movie.
Chad (04:00.97)
Yeah.
Joel (04:06.714)
The last scene where the, star Wars weapon in the popcorn in the house. And then they play tears for fears. Everybody wants to rule the world. That's like such an eighties moment that I guess, anytime that's on a movie flight, I watch it. Like I love that movie. It's a quick watch kids. If you haven't watched real genius, I, highly encourage you to do so.
Chad (04:07.924)
Great memories. Yeah.
Yeah.
Chad (04:20.744)
Yeah, it's great.
Chad (04:26.1)
We're talking to you Moe, because we know you haven't seen it.
Maureen Wiley Clough (04:28.014)
I've got some homework. Yeah, was three when that movie came out that you were talking about. But I have seen Top Gun and Top Gun, Top Gun. Yeah, it's legit. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Joel (04:28.848)
Damn millennials.
Chad (04:34.078)
real genius, top gun, iconic, iconic Iceman. You definitely have to watch true romance. Walk-ins in that one. mean, they're just, that is star studded. Just awesome. But yeah. Yeah. Yep. He was, he was leading that.
Joel (04:34.24)
nice, just stick it in there dude.
Joel (04:49.244)
Don't forget the was it Island of Dr. Moreau that like there's some real gems in there. if you look that, that the mainstream ones, everyone knows, but there are some real, and, his, his, there's a documentary on, on Netflix about his life. And he did a Mark Twain, like road show kind of a Broadway thing that he played Mark Twain. That was really awesome. So the dude was, was, handsome.
Maureen Wiley Clough (04:49.422)
What's going on the list, man?
Maureen Wiley Clough (04:56.59)
haven't even heard of these.
Chad (04:58.442)
Yeah. All right.
Chad (05:06.048)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (05:17.894)
But he played roles that were very challenging and yeah, Val Kilmer, Gone way too soon, like so many.
Chad (05:23.476)
Yeah. Rest in peace. Rest in peace. It is. He had throat cancer and yeah, it was kind of like, I think a downward spiral from there. So anyway.
Maureen Wiley Clough (05:24.984)
Way too soon. 65 is young. It's rough. Sad.
Joel (05:28.922)
It is young. Throat cancer.
Maureen Wiley Clough (05:36.142)
Yeah.
Joel (05:36.282)
And the opposite of too soon is Cory Booker's filibuster. Did you guys see this?
Maureen Wiley Clough (05:39.726)
No kidding. I mean, you got to hand it to him. I don't care if you don't like what he had to say. Standing up there for over a day, the stamina that takes is just ludicrous. I'm tired just thinking about it. I need to go nap thinking about what he did and all the preparation he did for it. But just the beauty of him eclipsing Strom Thurmond, that is so awesome, so sweet.
Chad (05:41.556)
Yes.
Chad (05:47.216)
yeah.
Chad (05:59.54)
Yo, yeah.
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:05.934)
But hats off to that guy. mean, he's 55 years old. That's what 55 looks like in 2025. So keep rolling, right?
Chad (06:11.178)
For, from the Strom Thurman standpoint, thank God, hopefully we can start to strike that piece of shit from the history books for God's sakes. but the thing that got to me though is like afterwards, you know, they talked to them and it was almost like they were, they were talking to an athlete about, the, the stamina and the, okay. So, and just take it from my vantage point. I have a military background. We did that shit all the time.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:16.142)
Ugh.
Yep, with you there.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:28.824)
Totally.
100%.
Chad (06:38.496)
I mean, give me a fucking break. We didn't just stand and talk. We were all over the place. I mean, and we were up for days for God's sake. So when I start seeing that the guy is in a, a, temperature controlled area, he's got the only thing he didn't have to do with, he probably wore double depends good for him. But I mean, at the end of the day, it was like the stamina it takes. It's like, motherfucker, please. We got, we got, we got people on a daily basis who are guarding your asses who are doing more than that.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:38.766)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (06:43.64)
Good point.
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:00.686)
That's fair.
Chad (07:07.978)
But yet we want to, okay. Love Cory Booker. Don't get me wrong, but come on people, give me a fucking break.
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:10.104)
That's totally fair.
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:14.786)
Yeah, maybe we're focused on the wrong stuff.
Joel (07:15.206)
Not, not, not so impressed as Chad. So wash. like that. I like that. He's a hard motherfucker. Now I want to know, at least one Democrat on the call that I know. think not just me saying it, but the Democrats are kind of lost in the wilderness. Bernie's back. Like is Corey setting himself up to be the voice, the leader of the party after this, after this episode or no.
Chad (07:18.792)
I'm not.
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:22.157)
Hahaha!
Maureen Wiley Clough (07:42.54)
I mean, I think that has to have been part of why he was doing it, right? And I think, God, like do something, Democrats. Like, please show us something different. Do something different. I mean, it gives him a shot, I would say, for sure. I mean, he deserves a shot for other reasons too, but yeah. I mean, to say the least.
Joel (07:53.638)
Yeah.
Chad (07:56.5)
I think what we're seeing, yeah, no question, but I think what we're seeing from Gavin Newsom right now is one of the smartest pivots where he's actually talking to Steve Bannon. He started a new podcast and he's starting to, he's talking to all these right wing fucking wackos. And I mean, we're not just talking about, you know, right conservative. We're talking about fucking wackos. He's talking to all these guys and what he's doing is he's trying to get the Manosphere
Joel (08:03.868)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:04.116)
Mm, yeah. Agreed.
Chad (08:25.46)
to understand who he is, right? So he's talking to all the fucking wackos. So he's trying to get the manosphere to understand who he is to try to slowly nudge them back into the same portion of what we call life, right? So I think what he's doing, which many, many Democrats and progressives do not like, I think is incredibly smart. And it's exactly what we need to be doing to be able to win over
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:50.798)
Brilliant.
Chad (08:54.356)
the actual narrative. I think what he's doing is incredibly smart, but they, the democratic bench is deep. It is deep. Now how they go after the different narratives. Like I was just talking about Gavin Newsom, maybe this is Corey's, you know, first foray into be able to, launch into something like that. don't know.
Maureen Wiley Clough (08:56.664)
Totally agree.
Joel (09:13.596)
Yeah. Most, most parties, uh, have someone that the world thinks of whether it's Obama, Clinton, but like they have the person. Um, and I've said they need another Clinton. need another Obama and maybe Booker Gavin. Um, is it, I do love how Gavin will go into the lion's den. I guess if for lack of a better word, like when he went on Fox and, debate it, debated DeSantis like that was a baller move. Um, know, he's, he's, and he's not.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:17.654)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:20.148)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:32.488)
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:33.091)
Yeah.
Chad (09:37.534)
Yeah. yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:39.054)
Totally.
Joel (09:41.978)
He's not prone to like canceling or you're wrong and get out of here. Like he he's open to conversations. And I think there needs to be more of that on both sides, but particularly on the Democrat. mean, when the Democrats sort of. Yeah. I mean, when the Democrats tried to embrace Liz Cheney, they caught him was like, Nope, Cheney done. like we, know, politics is a game of addition, not subtraction. And I think Gavin is following that, that playbook. And, I do, I do applaud that.
Chad (09:50.057)
Agreed.
Maureen Wiley Clough (09:51.345)
100%. It's literally what we need.
Chad (10:09.002)
Big tent.
Maureen Wiley Clough (10:09.016)
I think it's brilliant. When I heard it first, I was like, great, another podcast? Are you kidding me? But then when I found out that what he was doing, I was like, this is literally exactly what we need because we are so completely polarized in this country. We need to have these conversations. I mean, we are in our own echo chambers constantly and that's why no one can kind of cut through the noise and see the other side. And you have to believe otherwise you go absolutely insane that the far right contingent is not everybody and that, you know, there are people that fall far.
Chad (10:13.952)
Yeah.
Chad (10:20.608)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (10:31.91)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (10:37.614)
closer to the center, to the more independent realm that have made the choice to go right or go left, right? But it's like, we have to imagine that there are more people in the center than anything. So getting those conversations to happen, it's just critically important for anything to change.
Chad (10:53.608)
We hope. Enough of this political stuff though. It's April Fool's Day. Shout out. Let's do this.
Joel (10:57.134)
It's like, it's like.
We're doing shout outs without shout out shout outs are sponsored by our friends at Kiara up north. Shout out to them. Text recruiting made easy and inexpensive. Chad, you gotta shout out what you got.
Chad (11:04.178)
Yes, love those guys. Love those guys.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So it was April Fool's Day and there were all of these April Fool's pranks. One that we got that was actually an article slash press release that was dropped by TalkPush. I'm just going to go ahead and drop this CEO Max Armbruster sent us a video. Here's what it is. Roll that beautiful beam footage.
Chad (11:47.56)
Chad (11:52.426)
Huh?
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:03.636)
That's good.
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:24.462)
That's really hats off. Totally hats off.
Joel (12:25.276)
That was flogging great, wasn't it?
Chad (12:29.138)
love it we need some more flogging
Joel (12:31.444)
I did love the career crossroads getting acquired by Workday. That was also, that was pretty good.
Chad (12:35.39)
Yeah. It was good. It was just so over the top. I looked at it and I went, what the fuck? This doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Okay. I got it. I got it.
Joel (12:45.036)
April Fool's Day, okay, got it. I'm like, why didn't we think of that one? Shit, we should have thought of that one. Mo, what you got?
Maureen Wiley Clough (12:50.146)
Hahaha!
Well, I mean, no jokes here. know Chad or Joel, you are excellent because you can always work in like a fast food reference. There's no show that goes by that you don't do that. And so for me, I guess my thing is kind of becoming like an ode to those who like make me laugh so I don't cry. And so I want to shout out corporate bro, AKA Ross Pomerantz and his team of actors and comedians that work with him like Ben Gould. They put together the sickest like lickety split right after it happened.
Chad (13:02.592)
Pretty much.
Joel (13:03.855)
try.
Joel (13:09.926)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:23.106)
deal versus rippling spy drama video that just killed me. It was so hilarious. So I think we got to roll it.
Joel (13:29.178)
Yeah, this is going to be the gift that keeps on giving this year.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:31.446)
Mmm, so good, so good.
Chad (13:38.144)
.
Maureen Wiley Clough (13:46.19)
you
Chad (14:00.493)
looks like 007.
Maureen Wiley Clough (14:32.002)
Huh.
Chad (14:48.776)
And he runs. He's off.
Maureen Wiley Clough (14:49.166)
Just brilliant. mean, especially in the age of AI where everything is just like nonsense, like all this content is total crap. Like to see that beautiful skit like done so perfectly well, like just hats off. Just thank you. Thank you for making us laugh. And by the way, like whoever said that HR was boring, look at this. Are you kidding? Like James Bond, James Bond shit.
Chad (14:52.992)
It's funny.
Joel (15:07.792)
This is gold, baby. This is gold. Yeah, this is gold shit right here. But if it wasn't for all the crazy political shit going on right now, this would be it. This would be headlines. So thank you for mentioning my fast food stent. My mom would be so proud to know that I'm being known for fast food references, but brings me to my shout out to Wendy's, but sort of indirectly Wendy's shout out to sponsored snaps.
Chad (15:08.864)
Once in a lifetime. This is once in a lifetime shit guys. This is once in a lifetime.
Chad (15:16.383)
Yes.
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:17.517)
yeah.
Chad (15:21.312)
god. Here we go.
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:21.814)
anytime.
If I don't do it, you will, that's for sure.
Maureen Wiley Clough (15:32.398)
So good.
Joel (15:34.96)
I know the kids love the Snapchat and Snapchat launched sponsored snaps in November, I think of last year. Basically these are, you got your text messages or your messages, and then we have little corporate messages within the messages from friends. Now these better be entertaining. They can't just be, you know, depends ads going back to the diapers. it has to be good stuff, but Wendy's did this ad and 52 million people, watched.
this Wendy's ad. And when you think about what Wendy's normally would have done with television advertising or something general, like this is a huge deal. think this sort of ad within your experience in an app is akin to ads on keyword searches, right? It's kind of organic. It's similar to the feed. When the feed came out, I was like, ads are actually going to show up as you scroll through the internet. This I think is something very similar. So if you're a, if you're a company and you need to get in front of a lot of people,
Chad (16:08.512)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (16:32.634)
work with your agency or whoever, like create, look at some of these sponsors snaps because I think that's going to be a really interesting, unique way for you to get your message out as an advertiser.
Chad (16:42.986)
Very nice, very nice. Last shout out goes to Oroz Alcubasi who heard us talking about Indeed's traffic decline last week and noticed that Indeed did not experience the biggest drop from January to February 2025. No, the dumpster fire we know as Career Builder dropped 22%, but one quick question to Oroz. Oroz, did you factor in Simply Hired and Indeed Property?
dropping 17 % into that narrative. Now I know that Indeed and SimplyHired are separate sites, but they're both owned by Indeed. And an honorable mention to the shitty traffic decline goes to any guest cheeseman who the number three pick was? Number three goes to ZipRecruiter who dropped 16 %
Joel (17:22.374)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (17:28.316)
Craigslist.
Joel (17:32.391)
no.
Maureen Wiley Clough (17:32.974)
Hahaha
Chad (17:35.552)
16%. Once again, shout out to ORAS and all of the listeners who help us dig deeper into these topics. Joel, Mo and I, we love you listeners. So thanks. Keep it coming.
Joel (17:47.369)
We'd love to give you free stuff. We'd love to give you free stuff for all the love that we get from you.
Maureen Wiley Clough (17:49.676)
You
Chad (17:50.428)
What? What? What we do in it's... Well, you can actually do that at chadcheese.com slash free. T-shirts from our friends at AERNAP, those beautiful ched and cheese guns and roses looking t-shirts. We've got new designs coming out soon. Bourbon barrel-ade syrup from our kids up north at Kiura. Craft beer.
Joel (18:03.226)
Yeah. they're beautiful. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (18:05.998)
Ooh.
Chad (18:15.604)
fucking Bob and Doug, craft beer from the data geeks over at Aspen tech labs, whiskey, two bottles of whiskey from van hack. And if it is your birthday, it's time for rum with plum, but you can't win. If you don't play Chad, cheese.com slash free feeling all the way down.
Joel (18:16.71)
Canada loves us.
Maureen Wiley Clough (18:34.318)
you
Joel (18:38.996)
That's right. Another trip around the sun for Sean Godfrey, Steven Rothberg, Todd Burns, Amy English, Jason Casey, Arno Schaeffer, Rob McIntosh, Louis Nobrega, Nishay Argawal, Phil Rodriguez, aka P-Rod, Allie Roberts, and my man, Patrick York. Happy birthday, everybody. And I know we don't have travels, but word.
Maureen Wiley Clough (18:56.846)
You
Chad (19:00.394)
There it is.
Joel (19:06.938)
Broomer on the street is Euro Chad. Euro Chad is coming. Euro Chad. If you feel like the show's been a little salty lately, we're gonna sweeten it up. Getting the honey out, little maple syrup, the sweetness is coming back this summer. Don't worry everybody. Do not worry. Euro Chad is coming back.
Chad (19:10.89)
Please God, please, please allow JuroCad to come back soon. my God.
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:12.362)
Ugh, so jealous. Get me out.
Chad (19:23.744)
I need it. We all need it.
Maureen Wiley Clough (19:31.032)
That's awesome. See like a noticeable lift in his spirits.
Chad (19:39.056)
as we've been talking about this once in a lifetime thing, this corporate espionage, first and foremost, again, I can't thank our listeners enough. We receive relevant information all the time. And the following affidavit, yes, I said affidavit, was provided to me this very morning by a loyal listener. Again, I love you listeners. So are you ready? I don't think you are, but we're gonna...
Joel (20:01.404)
Mm-hmm.
Go ahead, Chad, Chad Esquire, Chad Sawash Esquire.
Maureen Wiley Clough (20:06.104)
So ready.
Chad (20:07.114)
We're gonna do it anyway. We're gonna do it whether or not. So on April 1st, yes, just a couple of days ago, April Fool's Day, Keith O'Brien, formerly Rippling payroll employee, signed a sworn affidavit with his testimony of deals, corporate espionage through him. So let's go. We're gonna go through this chronologically and you guys just kick in wherever you feel like you wanna kick in.
Maureen Wiley Clough (20:23.287)
You
Joel (20:25.254)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (20:31.808)
July of 2023, O'Brien begins employment with Rippling in the Dublin office overseeing payroll issues in Europe. Early 2024, O'Brien interviews for a position at Deal, but has not offered the job. O'Brien reaches out to Deal CEO Alex Boiseis to ask why he wasn't hired and the connection of those two were connected. He was literally just looking for feedback. Hey,
Joel (20:45.404)
Hmm.
Chad (20:58.88)
Appreciate you guys having me in. I wasn't chosen. Why wasn't I chosen? Very, very innocent, but that connection. Yeah.
Joel (21:00.284)
Sure.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:01.23)
Lots of people ask that. Yeah. They usually don't get an answer. Yeah. O'Brien. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joel (21:04.966)
Very Irish. Very Irish.
Chad (21:07.472)
Exactly. but Alex did, he did, and that was where the connection was made. So in mid-24, listen to this, O'Brien establishes a payroll consulting business and offers services to Deal. During discussions, he informs Deal CEO, Boazis, of his
Joel (21:10.064)
What the feck?
Chad (21:32.732)
intention to leave Rippling to focus on consulting. So he had a little side business going on there and he was one of Deal's providers. Late September 2024, that's right, only a few months back, Deal CEO proposes that O'Brien remains at Rippling to act as a spy for Deal, referencing James Bond. No shit, referencing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:39.864)
Smart.
Maureen Wiley Clough (21:55.896)
That's, can you even, I mean, that part is so good. My God. You were gonna tech company. Come on.
Chad (21:59.904)
I mean, come on, you can't make this up. Approximately 30 minutes later, because O'Brien went away, like, I'm not sure about this, let me think. He waited 30 minutes and then he called him back on WhatsApp. October 6th, 2024, O'Brien receives his first payment. Listen to this kids, first payment of 6,000 USD for espionage activities. Yes! Yes!
Maureen Wiley Clough (22:08.909)
Ha ha!
Joel (22:25.788)
That's it? That's all? What a fucking wanker. What else?
Maureen Wiley Clough (22:27.192)
Honestly, you're gonna have to pay me a hell of a lot more if you want me to do that. Right? What a fucking idiot. And the CEO.
Chad (22:30.054)
I know. That's it. Well, and he, he, they agreed to five hun- five thousand pounds per month moving forward. And I mean, this guy's working as a spy for five thousand pa- he had to be the cheapest spy.
Maureen Wiley Clough (22:50.798)
Cheapest spy of all time. Dude.
Joel (22:52.22)
What is that in USD? That's like 40, 4,400 something like that. mean.
Chad (22:56.19)
like no no no no it's like it's six thousand it's it's it's more the conversion rates the other way so
Maureen Wiley Clough (23:01.89)
The CEO must have been like, dude, I'm making out like a bandit. I'm getting a corporate spy for 5K a month.
Joel (23:03.551)
you're right, you're right.
Chad (23:04.511)
Yeah, yeah. So, but but then they were they were like, okay, we're gonna start paying you in crypto after this. So go figure as we talked about before, we should just ban crypto from fucking every everything. It's just it's it's it's it's Yeah, I know it's not gonna happen. But it's fucking shady shit. October 2024 to February of 2025.
Joel (23:14.204)
Perfect.
Maureen Wiley Clough (23:15.362)
this story.
Maureen Wiley Clough (23:20.014)
Cause shady shit goes down. Yeah.
Joel (23:20.156)
Good luck with that.
Chad (23:31.26)
O'Brien Supplies deal with confidential information from Rippling's internal systems. According to Keith O'Brien and accompanying reports, he provided a broad range of confidential and proprietary data from Rippling to Deal CEO. Here's a breakdown of some of those things he passed along. Customer lists and Salesforce data, product roadmaps and development plans, internal Slack communications, Google Drive documents.
engineering and technical information, recruiting and hiring information, including employee contact info, financial and strategic documents, rippling strategic weak points. Now the way that he delivered these was through WhatsApp and Telegram. And then Boazis reportedly asked for specific information and O'Brien obliged regularly. So in the affidavit,
O'Brien mentioned taking screen recordings and screenshots and sending texts of information to Boaziz up to six times a day. Boaziz was also contacting O'Brien if he hadn't heard from him in a couple of hours. I mean, imagine, and let's take a second here. Imagine the paranoia that the deal CEO had that, wait a minute, this guy might actually flip back.
Maureen Wiley Clough (24:38.926)
Stupid.
Maureen Wiley Clough (24:43.566)
Jesus.
Chad (24:53.992)
and start telling Rippling because he's getting, he's getting scared. Number one. Yeah. And then number two, so everybody who's out there, who's ever studied espionage whatsoever, you don't ask for the myriad of bullshit that he asked for and going into systems multiple times on, I mean, not just one system, multiple systems on a daily basis. I mean, if you're going to trip, if you're going to, if you're going to trip over some,
Joel (24:56.986)
He's double agent.
Maureen Wiley Clough (24:57.623)
my God. Yeah, seriously. I don't think he has it in him. Let's see.
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:18.222)
Play it cool, man. Like, this is bush league.
Joel (25:22.588)
Buy tips from Maureen.
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:24.206)
Yeah, seriously, when I have done this, I definitely, yeah.
Chad (25:25.245)
my god. Yeah.
Chad (25:31.348)
So, mean, so he's asking this dude to do all this stuff, all of it. And you know you're gonna hit a tripwire somewhere, right? So late February, 2025, Rippling discovers unauthorized information access and sets up a honeypot operation, creating a fake Slack channel named D-Defectors to monitor O'Brien's activities. When you have that much activity, go fucking figure, you're going to notice, especially guys who are in systems like Salesforce.
Joel (25:36.006)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (25:59.548)
multiple times a day like in sales slack conversations multiple times a day. mean Jesus
Maureen Wiley Clough (25:59.681)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (26:00.764)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (26:07.022)
Stuff is not private, man. Like what you do on your company computer is, come on! This is basic.
Chad (26:09.76)
No shit? So late February 2025, this is funny. So this tells you just how stupid the deal CEO is. Boaziz alerts O'Brien about the defectors, about the... We should do Bozo, yeah. About the slack channel, the decoy slack channel.
Maureen Wiley Clough (26:20.302)
Bozo.
More like Bozo. Yeah, we gotta call him Bozo, sorry. Yeah.
Joel (26:26.78)
We have a nickname, folks.
Chad (26:35.612)
As soon as he gets the letter, he gets on and he tells O'Brien, hey, look, there's this Slack channel, right? And then realizes afterwards that it's a trap. He reaches out to O'Brien and says, wait a minute, don't do that. It's a trap. And O'Brien's like, shit, I've already done it.
I mean, just to be able to take a second and breathe to understand what's going on. First and foremost, you've got this guy tripping wires all over systems, all of these systems, right? And then, because you're acting way too fast and acting like an idiot, you send him into a honeypot and then say, wait a minute, don't go there. I mean, it's fucking crazy.
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:20.05)
Man, how many of those do you have? Those are good. His don't start. Yeah, he's definitely bozo.
Chad (27:22.192)
Exactly. So, a bunch. We have more. March... We can get one. March 14th, a court-appointed solicitor confronts O'Brien at Ripley's office with a court order to search his devices. O'Brien panics, performs a factory reset on his phone while in the bathroom, and leaves the office despite solicitor warnings. On the 15th...
Joel (27:24.921)
don't even get me started, Mel. And now we need a bozo. Now we need a bozo soundbite for all the...
Maureen Wiley Clough (27:50.136)
So good.
Chad (27:51.132)
On the 15th, Deals counsel advises O'Brien to destroy his phone. Deals counsel advises him to destroy his phone and eliminate evidence. Following this advice, listen to this. O'Brien uses an axe to smash his phone and dispose of it down the drain of his mother-in-law's house. I think I just told you what it means. March 15th.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:11.15)
It's so good. It's so, so good.
Chad (28:17.546)
through the 25th, this timeframe, Deal offers to relocate, listen to this, Deal offers to relocate O'Brien and his family to Dubai and cover his legal expenses to mitigate the fallout. March 19th, O'Brien files a report with the Central Bank of Ireland making false accusations of rippling.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:28.974)
Totally normal.
Maureen Wiley Clough (28:34.338)
Nothing to see here.
Chad (28:43.092)
facilitating sanctioned Russian payments, a claim later that he admitted was fabricated under deals direction. Late March, we're almost in April guys, late March, experiencing guilt and pressure, O'Brien decides to cooperate with Ripley's investigation, acknowledging the harm caused to himself and his family by his actions. And on April 1st, the above, to the best of my ability, is a recap of his sworn statement.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:14.39)
Hahaha.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:18.926)
That was a doozy.
Chad (29:18.952)
So, so.
So what do you think?
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:25.902)
that I didn't know that human stupidity could go this far? like, I can do anything. Like, being a CEO means nothing. Like, what on...
Chad (29:29.536)
You
Chad (29:37.268)
Dude.
Joel (29:37.692)
So here's what I know of spies. The mob and the CIA. The mob, from what I understand, goes through a very rigorous set of actions to make sure that you'll keep your mouth shut and you never rat on your friends. We've all seen Goodfellas, right? Well, maybe not Moe because she's too young, but another one for you to add to the roster, Moe. The other is the CIA where they have really detailed psych stuff.
Chad (29:41.322)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (29:55.992)
To the list!
Chad (29:59.648)
Yes, that's a good one.
Joel (30:06.352)
they really get into like, who's going to be a good spy. This, this guy did not go through some deal pre-screening obviously for, for this job. it's such, it's so boneheaded that it's, it's really beyond understanding. And apparently O'Brien gets O'Brien gets a text the day that he goes to talk to the, to the, whatever the, the feds or whatever the equivalent is. And he said that the text is the truth will set you free.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:12.31)
you
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:23.489)
You
Joel (30:33.66)
So this guy finds a moment of clarity and a text message from a friend and decides to just like lay out his guts instead of taking a few shots of Jameson and keeping his mouth shut. He just like sings like a bird. This guy would not make the cut for the, uh, for the, the, Corleone family, uh, for sure. So that's what we're doing. So, this guy's going to go to jail. I think maybe not a long time, but he's going to go to jail for, I don't know how much total he got.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:40.888)
Right?
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:46.189)
Well, yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (30:50.478)
Hell no. But also it's like, there was something in there. yeah.
Chad (30:58.816)
Yeah.
Joel (31:02.342)
let's call it under 50 grand. He's gonna he's gonna he's gonna go the pokey and I don't know. I don't know what Irish prisons are like, but they do not sound like a place I want to go. Okay. And and his name is mud. Apparently the guy's employable because he had two people like potentially employing him. had a site like the dude had a future. It's not like they pulled him out of some homeless shelter and made him made him a spy. So his name is mud forever. He's going to be on every Fama, you know, Fama background check.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:03.918)
Yeah.
Chad (31:04.287)
Yes. 20 at most.
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:16.846)
yeah, screwed.
Chad (31:21.354)
Yeah.
Joel (31:32.038)
from here, from here to eternity. He's probably gonna do some jealous time. He might get fined. So he's, he's fucked for not much lesson to the kids. Like don't do shit like this. The thing with deal. so historically espionage has progressively gotten worse in terms of punishment. Like, I know like the country's laws and things, but if you look at historically,
Maureen Wiley Clough (31:41.622)
You
Joel (31:56.764)
In 18 and 19, two Apple engineers were caught leaking autonomous car tech secrets to Chinese firms. They got jail time of three years, right? So three-year jail term for leaking this case, that probably had some bigger implications because we're talking about Apple and the Chinese government. But deal's going to pay a big fine because Ripley is going to prove how much business they lost, how many deals that they lost through this.
Chad (32:01.738)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (32:23.178)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (32:23.918)
Hmm.
Joel (32:26.534)
Chad, you think that some executives from Deal are going to the pokey. Which ones?
Chad (32:32.096)
If you take a look at the CEO who was he was in this from day one and his dad who is the CFO they had two separate telegram channels set up between them and O'Brien. One was to be able to get the intelligence to the CEO. The other one was for payment. Right. Those to me easily orange jumpsuits too easy. It's just too easy. And
Maureen Wiley Clough (32:58.603)
yeah. No question.
Chad (33:02.344)
If you think about it, it's funny because you talk about the pre-screen. Look at who was pre-screening this guy. We're talking about this Bozo, who's the CEO, who literally sends him out to all of these areas where he can hit numerous amounts of tripwires, and he does, right? O'Brien wanted to start up his own consulting firm. He wanted to leave Rippling, right? And he says this over and over and over, and it's more of an excuse than anything else because he still did what he did, but he wanted to get the fuck out of there.
Maureen Wiley Clough (33:10.126)
Hmm.
Chad (33:31.93)
And the deal CEO Boazis kept saying, no, just stay for a little bit longer. Stay for a little bit longer. And if you do stay, you will be on the premier list of our partners, which means more money, right? So at the end of the day, dude, this to me, literally, I asked ChatGPT to create a comedy out of this, like an SNL skit.
Joel (33:58.33)
Uh-huh. Yep.
Chad (34:00.96)
There's no way that this comes out as like an espionage trailer. This is literally the Keeks, Stone Cops, and the Three Stooges version where Mr. Bean plays Kevin O'Brien. Or Keith O'Brien, yeah. Yeah.
Joel (34:09.242)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:09.602)
Right, 100%.
Joel (34:12.08)
Mr. Bean and Benny Hill would have a good time with this story. The other issue, aside from the justice thing is trust. know, like growing up, you learned like you can spend a lifetime building trust that you can destroy in seconds. And if I'm deal, I'm on the cusp of IPO. I'm boats and hoes. I'm rocking on all cylinders and I do some stupid shit like this and get caught. Like if you're a deal, cause if you're a deal customer,
Chad (34:20.912)
dude.
Chad (34:27.615)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:27.762)
God,
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:38.232)
Just why?
Joel (34:40.836)
If you're a deal prospect, how do you feel about using deal now? If you're an employee at deal, how do you feel about this? Do you feel good about it? Probably not. The only people feeling good at this is like remote oyster factorial, like all the competition that's looking at us, like what a bunch of knuckleheads we're going to grab some business. So if I'm a shareholder, employee prospect customer of deal, like this is awful. The optics are horrible.
Chad (34:44.692)
Ouch.
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:45.272)
hate.
Chad (34:49.632)
That's why they have to clean out the C-suite.
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:54.432)
Right?
Chad (34:57.589)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (34:57.836)
Yep.
Totally.
Chad (35:06.014)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (35:06.04)
That guy's going to the big house for sure. mean, this is just the whole thing is outrageously stupid. And it just makes me feel like there's just no one should have imposter syndrome. I mean, you look at people who have these titles of CEO and whatnot and you think like, man, they must be really killing it. They must be super, super sharp. Nope. Look at this guy. Are you kidding me? He's just like lighting his whole life on fire. And for what? Like what are they worth? Like 10 bill or something? I mean, it's like you said, they're going to IPO. What are you doing?
Chad (35:12.202)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (35:12.219)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (35:35.17)
Who comes up with this harebrained scheme?
Joel (35:35.353)
I'll tell you for what, Mo, I'll tell you for what.
Chad (35:35.52)
Yeah.
Chad (35:42.816)
I think the only thing Deal can do right now is clean out the C-suite and to be able to refresh the C-suite so that they can try to start gaining trust back. mean, it's all you can do. It's all you can do. Yeah, you better hope she's clean though. That's the thing. You might need to, this is so deep and this is so dark. I don't know and I don't care whether...
Joel (35:46.204)
Joel (35:51.716)
Yeah, make the co-founder, make the other co-founder, make her CEO. Yep.
Maureen Wiley Clough (35:54.2)
They have to.
Maureen Wiley Clough (35:58.99)
People are gonna run.
Joel (36:00.572)
Clean the house.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:03.422)
Yeah. God.
Chad (36:12.134)
Anybody in the C-suite or everybody in the C-suite was was actively helping or not they need to go from an optic standpoint We need to say we cleaned out the headshed We are putting new people in place that you can trust Period and whether they were a part of it or not It doesn't fucking matter at this point this tell me the last the last story that was this fucking big and juicy in our industry
Joel (36:24.796)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:26.178)
Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:30.562)
Yeah, unfortunately.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:38.094)
I got nothing.
Joel (36:40.678)
Nope. Nope.
Chad (36:41.802)
This is once in a lifetime, dude. They got a clean house. Got a clean house.
Maureen Wiley Clough (36:43.606)
It really is. I agree with you. I feel really bad for the people who are working there who just had so much, you know, taken out from underneath them, just the rug pulled out completely. Like that sucks. Right? Like what a joke. my God. Yeah, no, he's, they're cooked. Yeah, that's a problem.
Chad (36:48.234)
Woof!
Joel (36:54.054)
How do you oversee a corporate meeting after that? How do you do an all hands meeting as a seat like, let's.
Joel (37:05.98)
Den of Thieves, Bozo, Bozo the Clown. All right, let's take a quick break. God, there's so much going on. All right, we'll be back. We'll be right back.
Chad (37:07.827)
Hahaha
Maureen Wiley Clough (37:09.12)
Ibozo, man, we gotta make that stick. He deserves it. So much.
Chad (37:14.912)
Alex Bozo.
Chad (37:20.159)
Ooh!
Joel (37:20.772)
All right, kids. what's going on in politics in the world today? Let's so, so lay off, lay lay off announcements surged in March, which, know, if you listen to the show driven by significant cuts in the federal government, particularly within the department of government efficiency, AKA doge, the DC area has been particularly hard hit with year to date layoffs totaling any guesses.
Chad (37:25.352)
Nothing. Thank God.
Maureen Wiley Clough (37:26.166)
Nothing's happening. It's very, very boring.
Joel (37:46.748)
278,711. What's more Musk is gone. Apparently Trump told his inner circle, including the cabinet that Elon Musk will be stepping back in the coming weeks from his current role as governing partner, ubiquitous cheerleader and Washington hatchet man. and did you hear about the tariffs, the tariffs that come, that came by the liberation day in America?
Maureen Wiley Clough (38:11.158)
Yeah, a couple of those. Liberation.
Chad (38:11.498)
What?
Chad (38:14.848)
Jesus.
Joel (38:15.068)
That's right. We got a 10, 10 % across the board increase. Uh, the congressional budget office predicts that it'll bring in $2.2 trillion in revenue by 2034. China was especially hit at 34 % our beloved European union, 20 % in India got a 34 % increase. Chad, your thoughts on all the news from layoffs to Elon to tariffs.
Chad (38:42.1)
This has been a hard week because just after the freaking deal shit and all the things that I had to go through from a research standpoint, let me lay this out. So we go from deals, stupidity and greed to a much larger landscape of you guessed it, stupidity and greed. As, as Joel so eloquently laid out what's happening in the headlines, I'm going to use my time to lay out some pretty much the economic battlefield that's happening right now. So on the jobs front,
Maureen Wiley Clough (38:49.496)
You
Chad (39:11.068)
Why are low jobs in abundance in the US? We'll go through that. On the immigration front, quickly, the US is losing hard working talent immigrants who pay nearly $100 billion in tax revenues every year. Those taxes go to local police and fire departments, less potholes in the roads, local schools that your kids attend, and many other areas. Then on the layoff front, which you talked about, yes,
We just saw, you know, HHS layoff 10,000 people, but understand that in the first quarter of 2025, that's right, nearly 300,000 layoffs were announced, making the highest quarterly total since 2009. Nearly, I mean, we're approaching half a million for God's sakes. I like to cite several sources, Business Insider, Reuters, Bloomberg. I mean, they're all citing just huge numbers.
Anyways, I'm always sure everyone understands those laid off government workers won't be taking the healthcare manufacturing and food service jobs that we just heard on the last jobs report. Yeah, I believe that shit. No. And then on the defense front, holy fuck, the EU member states have significantly increased their defense spending with the United States in recent years.
Joel (40:23.44)
No? You don't think so?
Chad (40:38.496)
with those total expenditures reaching approximately $326 billion alone in 2024.
fuck the amount of jobs, the hundreds of billions of dollars that we are losing in revenue that we're losing in revenue. And then you take a look at the tariff front, every single country, even, even islands that don't have inhabitants are getting a 10 % tariff on, mean, treating all, treating all countries like enemy combatants, attacking them economically.
Maureen Wiley Clough (40:54.402)
That's so loud.
Maureen Wiley Clough (41:07.746)
Unreal. It's absurd. Enemies. Yeah, what the hell?
Joel (41:08.826)
Islands without inhabitants. That's good.
Joel (41:15.74)
Bora Bora is pissed off.
Chad (41:17.536)
Okay, so here's some tourism numbers. Europeans normally spend about 155 billion in US tourism. Since the Trump craziness, Bloomberg is reporting a 25 % drop in forward bookings from Europe to the US. 155 billion. Canada has over 20 million, Jesus Christ, 20 million visits to the US in 2024, generating 20.5 billion in spending.
and supporting, this is the most important, in supporting 140,000 American jobs. Since Trump's tariffs were announced, border crossings have fallen by 45%. But no worry, the decline in European and Canadian visitors is expected to have substantial economic implications affecting airlines, hotels, national parks, and other.
other tourism, right, which is where we have immigrants usually do those jobs and they've left. So it's all good, which means on the child labor front, we will need less 14 year olds in Florida, which is a very hospitality state to be able to do those jobs. And then we have the Doge front where they're canceling contracts. have thousands of people who are losing their jobs because the contracts are getting, I mean, dude, I'm sorry.
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:26.111)
my god.
Chad (42:40.136)
I had to go through all of this, but this is an assault internally on hardworking Americans and externally on our allies. none of this makes sense. We think the deal story is dumb as fuck. This is exponentially, exponentially more dumb. I'm done. I'm done.
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:49.486)
Mm-hmm.
None.
Maureen Wiley Clough (42:57.71)
Taste the cake. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I have tried to stay away from the news as much as possible because it just makes me so deeply depressed and I don't want to fall into that deep, dark hole because that's just not good for me or anyone around me. Yeah, thanks a lot. But, you know, obviously coming to the show, I knew I had to talk about the news. So I guess my...
Joel (42:59.836)
Hmm. Well.
Chad (43:07.646)
It's impossible.
Chad (43:15.196)
Sorry. Sorry.
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:26.446)
Keep it on the high level. God. Okay, so I have a question and it is this. Here's part of the problem. We don't know that many people in our cities, coasts, et cetera, because they lean blue that voted for Trump. my question is, for those who did, is now the time when they're like, shit, maybe.
Joel (43:29.788)
Or deep, whichever.
Maureen Wiley Clough (43:52.812)
Maybe this wasn't the right call because this is like a freaking wrecking ball going through not only our country, but the rest of the world. And like you just pointed out Chad, like the ripple effects, they go on forever to infinity. Like this, this will leave no one unscathed. And so we only, we know of course that, that the billionaires are the only people that Trump actually really cares about. So the billionaires too are losing out on this right now. Like they're taking a hit. So
Chad (44:05.578)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (44:22.22)
Will them getting pissed off at Trump change any of this or like what's going on? And you know, I just, I'm so frustrated watching this play out because it seems so completely fucking pointless and unnecessary on every level. And just the amount of pain and anxiety that the American people and frankly the world are gonna go through because of these self-inflicted wounds that we have been dealing ourselves. Like I just.
It's so confounding to me as a semi-intelligent human. I just, holy fuck. Like it's, I have so many feelings. I have so many, thank you, thanks Joel. But I mean, it's just, it's, I never thought I would see something like this. Like he threw a bomb into our country and just like watched it detonate and was like, let's see, right? Like it's just, I really, I really struggle to comprehend it.
Joel (44:57.628)
Be nicer to yourself than that, Mo. Semi, semi.
Maureen Wiley Clough (45:18.498)
The one thing that I guess I'm happy to see is that Elon will be no longer gracing us as frequently. I guess there's only room for one malignant narcissist at the top of the country, so bye, Elon. But yeah, the rest of it is just like, my God, I just have like this deep.
Joel (45:35.42)
Only smart people use words like malignant narcissist, so don't worry about your cerebral capacity. You still got it. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (45:40.331)
thank you.
I still got it. But yeah, it's been rough. It's been rough to comprehend. I've been told my whole life that free markets were a good thing. What is going on? What the fuck?
Chad (45:54.26)
Yeah, that's what we were all taught. was, it was, I mean, to some extent they are, but it's, if you let them go crazy, it's fucking bullshit. I mean, you can't let them go crazy. There's gotta be guardrails. Joel?
Maureen Wiley Clough (45:59.678)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joel (46:04.476)
America is the largest economy in the world. We are 5 % of the world's population roughly, and we are 25 % of the world's output. We have gotten there because of the world, the way that it is. So economically, this doesn't make a lot of sense. We've been very successful in the way that the world is. I have stopped looking at this from a economic point of view.
And I look at it as a geopolitical struggle for power, if you will, of the world. And if you listen to Howard Lutnick, if you listen sort of into some things Donald Trump will say, it all points to they are afraid that there is going to be a conflict, probably with China and probably with Russia. When Trump goes in front of Congress and says, we need to build more boats,
Maureen Wiley Clough (46:54.946)
Hmm. Yeah.
Joel (47:02.298)
That's because China is building manufacturing boats, military ships at a rate that we cannot match. When Lutnick says we need to make steel in this country because if there's a conflict, we're screwed because we don't have the ability to make steel and then weapons of war with that steel. When he says that if China shuts off our pharmaceuticals, our people have a real problem.
That's a geopolitical statement. So to me, if you look at this from an economical question, it doesn't make sense. America is not losing economically. Capitalism globally works for us economically. But when you look at it from a war could, war could come, then it, then it doesn't. I think all of it, ask yourself, how does this help us in a, in a worldwide conflict? To me, it starts to make more sense. We are.
Maureen Wiley Clough (47:40.61)
Right.
Maureen Wiley Clough (47:44.024)
Hmm.
Chad (47:46.431)
Meh.
Joel (47:58.874)
We are tightening the screws on China in hopes that we can suffocate them.
Chad (48:02.848)
We're tightening the screws on everybody, our allies who would actually protect us against the China or what have you. So this does not make sense. I love the one sided that you're trying to go with, but this makes no fucking sense, dude. Why would you piss off your allies when they would be there to and allow China to actually fill the vacuum that you're creating? None economically and from a defense standpoint, it makes no sense. Why are we so strong in Europe?
Maureen Wiley Clough (48:09.961)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're isolated.
Maureen Wiley Clough (48:16.27)
You
Maureen Wiley Clough (48:21.431)
We need them.
Chad (48:32.382)
right now because of our military installations because we actually have footprint there. Guess what happens when we get kicked the fuck out? This makes no fucking sense.
Joel (48:34.32)
Well, because
Well, now that we're being hard on Europe means now they're spending money on defense. Is that not a geopolitical issue?
Chad (48:44.964)
And they're not spending money with us. So therefore we're losing the revenues. We're losing, no, and they're losing jobs. No, they should be doing that anyway, but they could be doing both. That's the thing. You're looking at it as a black or white thing. It's not. We can still play in the gray. There's still soft power that we need to focus on. USAID was the carrot. We took the carrot away. Now we're trying to beat everybody with a fucking stick and people do not react well to a stick.
Joel (48:48.71)
But if we know they have to fight Russia, does that not make sense?
Joel (48:55.11)
But they weren't.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:00.874)
Nothing ever is.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:13.836)
Nope, nowhere.
Joel (49:16.72)
I'm not saying they're going to act well. I'm just saying if I look at this from a geopolitical struggle question, it makes more sense to me because economically it doesn't make sense. I just explained to you how it makes sense geopolitically.
Chad (49:21.864)
It's stupid.
It... Where does it make sense?
Chad (49:30.408)
And I just told you it's fucking stupid because if we piss off our allies, we're by ourselves. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
Joel (49:38.076)
Trump and his administration have already said in public through whiskey leaks that they don't care about Europe all that much.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:45.866)
my god, that whole text chain. Incredibly stupid. I mean...
Chad (49:46.118)
Again, stupid. Why do you think we have troops in...
Joel (49:50.17)
You could, I'm not saying it's not stupid. I'm saying it helps make, it helps this make sense to me when I look at the headlines, because if I look at it strictly from this is dumb economically, yes it is. And by the way, most companies.
Maureen Wiley Clough (49:54.812)
You make sense of it.
Chad (49:57.78)
that he's stupid?
Chad (50:03.89)
It's dumb defensively.
It's dumb defensively.
Joel (50:10.64)
I don't think so.
Maureen Wiley Clough (50:10.83)
It's dumb all around.
Chad (50:12.212)
That's because you don't understand defense and military.
Joel (50:13.71)
If you say, don't make steel in this country, we don't make pharmaceuticals in this country, and we need to do that, that makes sense from a defense perspective.
Chad (50:19.41)
We can do that. We can continue to do that. We can do that though. We can do that while we have good relationships with Europe and our current allies.
Joel (50:26.672)
But this administration thinks the quickest way to do that is tariffs.
Chad (50:30.4)
because they're idiots. And if anybody has actually done any type of research whatsoever, and they take a look at Smoot-Hawley, which happened, tariffs that were supposed to help us, that it doesn't matter. You're talking about, they're all pieces. But they're doing both of them. They're contracting from a military standpoint, number one.
Joel (50:33.402)
That's fine.
Joel (50:42.726)
That's economic. That wasn't, that wasn't defensive. It does. That's my whole point. There's an economic question and there's a geopolitical question.
But Smoot-Hawley was only economic. There was not a war.
Chad (51:00.178)
And number two, they're doing tariffs. Both of those are happening right now, correct?
Joel (51:05.328)
What was the first point?
Chad (51:07.038)
We're contracting from a military standpoint from Europe. And then we're in, yes, we're starting to pull.
Joel (51:13.178)
We are isolating. We are creating fortress, this is Fortress America. The strategy is Fortress America. And more than likely, think there's a multipolar world where China and Asia is a thing and Russia and Europe is a thing and the Americas are us. We've lived our whole life with America, Russia for a period. The world is changing. And I think they believe that and they...
Maureen Wiley Clough (51:16.632)
which is contracting.
Chad (51:20.448)
And that worked in World War II How?
Joel (51:42.17)
with the debt that we have, with stuff not being made in America, like they are hoping to change that. And they think that the tariff system.
Chad (51:46.878)
The debt we have is due to tax cuts for rich people. Yeah, I mean we could pretty much erase that pretty quickly.
Joel (51:51.504)
The debt is the free money that we had during COVID. If you look at the debt, you...
Chad (51:55.752)
Are you kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? That is... Go ahead.
Maureen Wiley Clough (51:56.27)
Wait,
Joel (51:59.142)
Go look at the debt from 2020 to now and look what it's done.
Chad (52:03.309)
Look at the look at the tax cuts from Trump last time and then take a look at how because if you don't have revenues, if you don't have revenues, what does that actually do put you deeper in debt?
Joel (52:07.45)
We've had tax cuts.
Joel (52:12.816)
Well, we gave out a lot of money and that put us in deeper debt.
Chad (52:15.42)
If, yeah, so the problem was those poor people who needed to survive COVID.
Joel (52:20.464)
I mean, we can argue about how we're in debt, but the fact that we are in debt makes it harder to fight a war.
Chad (52:24.8)
Well, then we should start taxing people and we should maybe we I mean, maybe.
Joel (52:29.306)
Well, that's that's your opinion. And that's great. Their their idea is let's lay everybody off and let's cut costs.
Chad (52:36.148)
That's great for morale. can't wait to see poverty numbers go through the roof. How's that going to make us a stronger country?
Joel (52:42.192)
You're mistaking me defending this with me trying to make sense of it. It makes sense to me.
Maureen Wiley Clough (52:42.377)
boy.
Chad (52:46.334)
It doesn't make sense, that's what I'm saying. I have no fucking clue.
Joel (52:51.588)
It makes a lot more sense than anything else.
Chad (52:53.503)
Mo?
Maureen Wiley Clough (52:55.79)
Yeah, guys, I got nothing here. I think it's all just like a giant cluster, honestly. It's outrageous. And us being more isolated, I don't see how that helps us in any way, or form. I think it's outrageously stupid. I have never felt more uncertain about my future, our future, like at a meta level. It's just at a macro level. It's just not, nothing feels good. And I think, you know, a lot of this
Chad (52:58.146)
Ha ha ha!
Maureen Wiley Clough (53:25.016)
whole America first mentality, the concept of like bringing things back to America. mean, that doesn't happen overnight. Like that's a great concept of like, yeah, let's have American made goods. But, you know, small business owners who have tried that have seen problems with it and it's caused businesses to fold and people to have to switch to other suppliers. Like none of this happens overnight.
Joel (53:46.384)
If you're Nike, you're making shoes in China, you go, okay, China's bad, we're gonna go to Vietnam. And now Vietnam is bad. So if you're Nike, it's like, okay, they want us to come to America, that's gonna take three to five years to do. I think a lot of businesses are gonna say, hey, we're gonna take a flyer on this Trump thing being done in four years and hold our nose and hope that that's what happens. Because these are major decisions for a company.
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:01.368)
yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:09.56)
Hopefully.
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:14.808)
They really are. And they're not seamless transitions. And we don't have the fucking skilled workers. We don't have the skilled workers to do that right now. So what does he think they're gonna come out with? A fucking ether?
Joel (54:14.844)
to move operations to America. And then if you do that, then someone else is in power.
Well, another like with, with, Howard Lutnick, right? This is really interesting. The whole thing is like, we need jobs over here, but his statement is why, why can't Apple make iPhones with robotics here in America? So, which is a weird thing to say. If you're, if your pitch is we want more Americans to be employed in America. If your pitch is like, maybe it slipped out. said the quiet part out loud, but like,
Chad (54:44.916)
you
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:45.774)
So they don't give a shit about us.
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:50.35)
They always do.
Joel (54:50.94)
If their idea is like, we're going to bring manufacturing back to America and we're going to have robots do it, then the people aren't winning anyway. So there are a lot of, a lot of mixed messages and what this administration says. just, I to help, to help me because Scotch is now more expensive. need other ways to try to make sense of all this and weed is still not legal in, in Indiana. So.
Maureen Wiley Clough (54:55.466)
Robots doing it. Mm-hmm. No.
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:03.403)
No one is winning.
Chad (55:08.649)
You
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:10.474)
I mean, yeah.
Chad (55:12.756)
bourbon.
bourbon Canada's not buying our bourbon anymore so we can go ahead and get more bourbon
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:16.28)
That's depressing.
Joel (55:18.63)
Free, free chicken cock for everybody, say. free chicken cock for everybody.
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:23.234)
That might be the only way through this.
Chad (55:25.44)
God. I do like hearing the military stance though, Joel. I haven't heard that one before. So I'm going to dig in even deeper on that one. Good one.
Joel (55:37.798)
Well, we'll take a quick break and you can dig into that one. And by the way, folks, if you like what you're hearing, please be sure to subscribe through a podcast platform that you enjoy or even YouTube. If you like seeing our lovely, lovely faces. When we come back, we'll talk about X and tick tock as if it couldn't get any crazier.
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:49.678)
You
Chad (55:54.634)
So much fun.
Maureen Wiley Clough (55:55.106)
You
Joel (55:59.048)
X X X owner, Elon Musk announced on the X platform late last week that X AI acquired X and an all stock transaction. This combination values X AI at $80 billion and X at $33 billion. He bought it for $44 billion. FYI, in case you missed it on the deal must said quote, today we officially take the step to combine the data models, compute distribution and.
Maureen Wiley Clough (56:05.294)
You
Chad (56:18.815)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (56:19.534)
Mm-hmm. A little laugh.
Joel (56:27.804)
talent in quote, easy peasy, right Chad? What are your thoughts on the X X AI Twitter deal?
Chad (56:36.16)
I'm gonna go with Alex Murphy's thought so friend of the show Alex Murphy one of the smartest guys in the game CEO over at jobs, and he writes here's the math Elon bought Twitter for 44 billion Elon drove the value of Twitter down to 1 billion by making it into a dumpster fire Elon contributed the domain x.com to Twitter Elon sold X to his own company. He's selling this to himself
Maureen Wiley Clough (56:55.47)
You
Chad (57:05.236)
for $33 billion on an inside deal that does not represent a proper valuation in any way whatsoever. Netnet X's sale marks that the x.com domain as worth $32 billion and this is the largest domain sale in history. Thanks Alex. Thanks Alex. I love that. I love that.
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:25.454)
Ooh, Jesus, so loud. my God, so loud. Apparently I need to, yeah, this is intense. This is intense.
Joel (57:32.188)
Can we get your mic set up correctly?
Chad (57:34.538)
You
Joel (57:37.786)
You got the Lounge Singer mic today that's going in and out for us. You got the AirPods. Geez, this is amateur hour. What are your thoughts, Mo?
Maureen Wiley Clough (57:42.546)
know, reporting live. Yeah. I know, it's really bad. I mean, I don't think about X because I hate it and I will never actually refer to it as anything other than Twitter because that feels just like the slightest transgression than I can do against Elon, my favorite guy. Listen.
How many AI platforms are there now? just like, this is going to be, I wonder who's going to win because it's going to be a commodity at the end of the day. And I'm just exhausted. Do I have to go try another one out? Like, seriously. But yeah, I mean, whatever. Elon sucks. I'm so not a fan. He blows. Next story. That's how I feel.
Joel (58:27.42)
Wow.
Chad (58:28.288)
What if you're an XAI investor though? What if you're an XAI investor, you put your money into XAI and then he goes and spends that money or shares on a dumpster fire?
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:33.389)
Ahem.
Joel (58:37.692)
Dude, if you put your money in Elon, buyer beware, buyer beware. Like, yeah, I mean, I have no sympathy for the banks and the investors that put money in him. They get what they deserve. But even when he loses, he still wins big. Look, this, his,
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:38.688)
on Twitter, I'd probably be pretty bummed.
Chad (58:42.922)
Woo.
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:42.926)
You get what's coming. You get what's coming to you.
Chad (58:47.569)
Good point. Good point. Jesus.
Chad (58:55.527)
Eh.
Maureen Wiley Clough (58:55.542)
You reap what you sow.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:00.544)
It's really annoying how that's true.
Joel (59:05.104)
His 300 or so million in the Trump campaign is going to go down as one of the best investments, probably ever. mean, what he has been able to gain, he will not be investigated for this deal. The feds aren't coming. It's clean. No one's, no one's, no one's talking about, you know, breaking the law, trade violate anything like that. All right. So, so he bought, he bought kind of a free, he bought kind of a free pass to do this. Tesla.
Chad (59:08.032)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:12.718)
gross.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:16.952)
Yeah, you're totally right.
Chad (59:18.132)
no. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:20.974)
All right, pay to play, baby.
Chad (59:25.791)
self-dealing.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:26.934)
It's, how is this legal? It's...
Chad (59:31.328)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (59:33.53)
not that this was on purpose, but Tesla is the most American car on the market. So Tesla can win big. The tariff system could be a big win for Tesla. think similar to the deal question, think he needs to step down similar to how he did at Twitter. I mean, he's still in charge, but at least optically, he's not in charge. Somebody else needs to be in charge of Tesla.
Chad (59:39.007)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (59:40.782)
That's depressing. What does that say about America?
Chad (59:58.932)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (01:00:01.648)
He needs to go work on AI stuff or launch rockets. because I think, I think Tesla could be a big winner in this. Grok, you know, I agree like the AI thing who wins in that, who doesn't, is kind of a question, but I mean, this guy, this guy kind of, everyone thought he was done when he dropped 44 billion on Twitter and it looks like he might have the last laugh out of all this.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:16.64)
I'm tired, man.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:24.64)
Mm-mm. He is not done. Well, when you have however many billion dollars, 300 billion dollars, you can do whatever you want is the deal.
Joel (01:00:33.135)
Yeah, the dude.
Chad (01:00:33.312)
How do think he's gonna get the last laugh though? Because it's still a dumpster fire. There's no difference.
Joel (01:00:37.338)
Well, he's not going to, Twitter's not going to kill him. Tesla might come out of the ashes with the tariffs. mean, X is going to get big contracts from the government. And if we do go to war, guess who's going to make a lot of stuff that we used to fight the enemy, maybe Tesla and Elon's companies. I don't know.
Chad (01:00:55.84)
Nah, I don't see that. I do see, I think it's interesting though, because people who can't afford to buy a Tesla today, doesn't matter. The tariffs aren't going to make them able to buy Teslas tomorrow. And I remember growing up in a very depressed area in very industrial Ohio, manufacturing was leaving. I didn't know anybody who owned a new car. We had nothing but used cars. I mean, that's all it was. It's all it ever was. It's all I ever remembered.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:00:58.807)
Damn it.
Chad (01:01:26.028)
so yeah, to think that Tesla is going to, to benefit from new car sales off of this. I don't see it. I don't see it. I mean, we will see, we do see that they're dropping huge in, in, Europe. Are they going to be able to make that up here? Again, unless they drop to about half the price so that normal working fucking people can buy their cars. Sorry. Have a nice day.
Joel (01:01:48.422)
Yeah. I mean, it looks like BYD is going to take over the rest of the world anyway. So if Tesla is like, we're going to lose anyway to BYD, at least we can nail down the American market. I don't know. I don't know. Like most of our disagreements, Chad, time will tell.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:01:49.39)
I was like, none of us are gonna have any money.
Chad (01:02:00.958)
Maybe,
Chad (01:02:07.808)
And I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying just from my experience, I remember growing up when people couldn't afford new cars just because you throw tariffs on something.
Joel (01:02:15.388)
Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean people didn't buy cars. You just lived in the hood. Yeah. mean, know, Mo bought new cars. She's a new car kind of gal. She's a new car kind of mean, mine was a Ford Escort. Mine was a Ford Escort, but it was still kind of new.
Chad (01:02:19.456)
Use cars. Use cars. I mean, was use cars. But yeah, anyway.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:02:27.256)
all the time since I was a child, yeah. My trust.
Chad (01:02:30.521)
Hahaha
Chad (01:02:36.212)
Yeah, not a Tesla. Anyway.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:02:37.812)
Use cars all the way, Never.
Joel (01:02:40.636)
All right, let's go to tick. Let's go to tick tock. Shall we let's go to tick tock. This is, this is getting fun. All right. Tick tock faces a potential us ban. Stop me if you've heard this one before by April 5th, unless bite dance sells its us operations to a non Chinese buyer. Per a 2024 law upheld by the Supreme court this week, Amazon joined bidders like Oracle. And you're ready for this.
Chad (01:02:43.06)
Whoo!
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:02:47.758)
You
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:02:54.766)
Deja vu.
Joel (01:03:09.02)
Only fans. That's right. only fans in the game. Everybody only fans founder last minute push to acquire it. Get it. Push Trump who extended the deadline from January met with AIDS on April 2nd to review options, including a US based entity leasing leasing tick tocks algorithm, kind of like a home. No deal is confirmed and the app could shut down for 170 million users.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:03:11.554)
We love talking about them.
Joel (01:03:38.19)
If the deadline passes though, Trump may just extend it again. What the hell? Chad, your thoughts on all the tech talk drama.
Chad (01:03:46.048)
Yeah, I don't think anybody's getting the algorithm by the way. I mean, I don't care if they say they want to lease it by it. That shit's not happening, but I'm, that's where I want to focus because I had a pretty intense discussion with a guy who is quote unquote in the know. Um, while we were at transform a couple of weeks ago, he said the tick tock algorithm just isn't that important.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:03:49.262)
All
Chad (01:04:06.014)
Rather, it's the user base, the 170 million, because they won't leave the platform. And I contested, it was like, hey, look, if the algorithm is total shit, and it's not what the user is expecting, they will eject and find another platform, just like the Exodus from Twitter, right? So needless to say, we were in an impasse, he didn't agree, I didn't agree. So I asked both of you, does the algorithm have worth, or is it purely the amassed
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:04:19.864)
Mm.
Chad (01:04:35.501)
user base because they won't leave even if the algorithm is shit. What are your thoughts?
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:04:41.358)
I think both matter tremendously. mean, that algorithm is serving up gazillions of dollars, right? Like they're putting products in the hands of people who want it. They know what you need before you know you need it. It is crack. You're absolutely right. And it's something that, you know, they've obviously figured out how to fine tune really beautifully. I don't know what some of my For You page says about me. I don't think it's particularly good. like, why am I seeing this? This is terrifying.
Chad (01:04:52.104)
It's like crack too.
Chad (01:05:07.188)
You
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:05:09.87)
they figure out that you have ADHD before you know you have ADHD. I'm like, why am I getting served all these ADHD reels? Holy shit. my God, how do you know? So I mean, yeah, it's definitely a contributing factor. think it definitely exacerbates it to say the least. I do think, I mean, they have half of America on TikTok. Obviously, that's valuable in and of itself. But that algorithm is something special, like no question.
Chad (01:05:19.712)
Probably because they're creating it.
Chad (01:05:34.336)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (01:05:39.004)
Chad, I think it's time for a history lesson.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:05:41.613)
Heh.
Chad (01:05:41.856)
Finally! Jesus!
Joel (01:05:44.932)
I can remember being on stage in the mid 2000s and someone telling the audience that my space had 90 % of the social media market, which at the time was true. There was a little startup called Facebook that eventually took that down. had Instagram, we have Tik TOK, Snapchat for a hot minute. Like if we know anything, the kids are fickle. They're going to jump to the next cool thing and
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:06:01.902)
The Facebook.
Joel (01:06:14.05)
and continue, right? I've, read a story today that Tumblr is back for the young kids. They're back on Tumblr. So I would say the exact opposite. Like the algorithm is the secret sauce. It's the dopamine. It's the hit that people can't get enough of and keep on the platform. like they're going to stay on Tik TOK because the algorithm and I've always said like, whoever buys this thing, good luck. because
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:06:18.414)
I saw that too.
Chad (01:06:18.634)
Jesus.
Chad (01:06:27.572)
That's what I
Joel (01:06:39.856)
Good luck with the algorithm. Good luck with like keeping it cool and what people like, because China isn't going to give up the algorithm. In fact, there's a good, there's a good chance that China just says, fuck you to the whole thing. And like pulls tech talk out of the U S just to stick it to us for the tariffs. Right. So, Amazon makes sense. Cause you can sell shit. That's that's, that does make sense to me. And the, the shopping experience on tech talk is pretty good. And if the, Amazon could just replace that shopping thing with their shit.
Chad (01:06:46.464)
Mm-mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:06:46.936)
Mm-mm.
Chad (01:06:49.898)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:06:49.902)
Absolutely true. Yeah, I think that's a very likely outcome.
Chad (01:06:54.078)
Yeah?
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:00.046)
Mm.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:06.094)
true.
Joel (01:07:08.912)
That makes sense. The only fans guy, the Kevin O'Leary thing, like, Mark Cuban, none of that makes sense. Really. Lease China's not going to lease it to us because then we'll just steal it. Like they do our IP, right there. They know how the game works. They're not going to be like, live in the house for a month. And then we'll move you out. But in the whole time you've, you've gotten the whole blueprint for the house and everything. So yeah, I just, this is fun. I think the more, more likely thing is Trump just says like, Hey, let's just kick the.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:15.566)
Yeah.
Chad (01:07:22.654)
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:23.34)
Yeah, that's true.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:31.672)
Totally.
Joel (01:07:38.054)
kick the can down the road a little bit longer because I'm huge on Tik TOK. almost frankly, as huge as, my dad jokes have been recently Chad.
Chad (01:07:47.023)
good God.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:07:47.72)
boy, here we go. All right.
Joel (01:07:51.632)
That's right. Well, Easter, Easter's right around the corner, kids. So I thought I'd have a little Easter, Easter influenced dad Joe today. What's the difference between Jesus and a hooker? What's the difference between Jesus and a hooker?
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:08:02.99)
boy.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:08:10.894)
Got nothing.
Joel (01:08:11.792)
I love the thought processing. Give up, Chad. Jesus, Jesus and a hooker. The difference is the look they give while you're nailing them. That's right, the difference between Jesus and a hooker. It's the end of the world as we know it I feel fine, everybody. We out.
Chad (01:08:14.216)
Mmm. Yeah, things everything is going through my brain. I do not want to say on a mic go ahead
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:08:14.702)
Hahaha
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:08:19.896)
Mmm, yeah.
Maureen Wiley Clough (01:08:26.126)
oof, oof, yee, yeah.
Chad (01:08:29.79)
hell for that one. That's a one. We out.