Joel and Chad delve into Axel Springer's potential breakup and its implications for Stepstone and other digital classifieds. They praise Deel's strategic acquisition of Hofy, enhancing its payroll and remote office management services. A controversial move by Lattice to treat AI agents as employees is scrutinized, leading to a broader discussion on the role of AI in the workplace.
The episode also tackles significant changes in DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) initiatives at Microsoft and SHRM, reflecting on the shifting corporate attitudes towards these programs.
The episode wraps up with a celebration of Skyline Chili's recognition as a top regional fast food chain, a few laughs with Joel’s dad joke, and a reminder of the ongoing journey through these "interesting times." Tune in for a blend of industry insights, personal anecdotes, and thought-provoking discussions.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION (The AI did it)
Joel Cheesman (00:30.829)
Two guys who know when to fold them and when to hold them. Hi boys and girls. It's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co -host, Joel Five -Way Cheeseman.
Chad Sowash (00:40.704)
And this is Chad, manager's video pick, so watch.
Joel Cheesman (00:44.461)
On this episode Axel's Rum Springer Deel's new deal and SHRM steps in it again.
Joel Cheesman (00:57.227)
Chad, you were looking fresh. Look at you. Euro Chad on steroids.
Chad Sowash (00:57.362)
what? I'm feeling fresh. Love it, dude. Love it. I've been to the beach a couple of times since we've been back. I've been to the pool enjoying just, it's just a different life, my friend. Just a different life. yeah. Yoga this morning, playing paddle this afternoon. Yeah, it's just, it's a different life. It's a different life.
Joel Cheesman (01:07.814)
Mm
Joel Cheesman (01:12.395)
Yoga, meditating.
Joel Cheesman (01:20.375)
Well, with all the activity in the world today, I don't have to mention the obvious attempt on Donald Trump's life. It's probably nice that you're out of the American media loop of doom. It's interesting times we live in for sure. I'm glad you're living your best life there in Portugal.
Chad Sowash (01:29.01)
Yeah, elephant in the
Chad Sowash (01:44.898)
Yes, yes, no way. M out of that media bubble to some extent, which is nice. The thing for me, though, is, I mean, as I I think about it, just as a military guy, this dude was on a he he was in an elevated position, less than 200 meters away. How the fuck with with an AR -15, I mean, a combat style assault rifle, how in the fuck?
Joel Cheesman (01:56.172)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (02:14.252)
Does that happen? I mean, they had police assets, obviously, you know, the Secret Service, that's on the Secret Service. It's up to them to lock things down and to be sure that the president is safe. I'm just glad he did not, did not get assassinated, for God's sake. So that's the last thing that we need. We don't need this craziness, right? Let's just hope that we get to boring sometime soon. Fuck.
Joel Cheesman (02:41.749)
Yeah, things that things are coming out on this, quite fast and furiously. I'm sure that we'll, you and I were talking before we recorded it, that Oliver stone hasn't done much, in the past decade or so. This might get him all, all riled up to do another JFK type movie. what, where I was, I'm, when you and I were kids, like assassinations would just seem normal. We like JFK, RFK, Malcolm X, MLK, like
Chad Sowash (02:57.418)
I doubt it. I really doubt it.
Chad Sowash (03:07.884)
or at least attempts, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (03:11.117)
As a kid, thought, oh, this is just how the world works. Uh, and then, uh, Reagan, um, I remember where I was when Reagan was shot. was on my way to school and my dad, uh, pulled up next to me and like, told me the news. Um, I don't know where you were, but it's been so long and these moments in history always are bookmarks, uh, for everyone. And, and like, I was with Cole, we're still in England and it came on the BBC. Um, and he's at 17. I'm like, Cole will remember this forever.
Chad Sowash (03:34.828)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (03:41.163)
Where were you when Trump was shot? I was in England with my dad. So that was interesting. Where were you when Reagan was
Chad Sowash (03:41.58)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (03:50.54)
Fourth grade classroom. Early morning, fourth grade classroom. And I also remember that we, the entire class, actually made cards. So crayons, all that other fun stuff. And I remember mine very vividly because it was nothing but a bowl of jelly beans. And get well soon. That was pretty much it. Get well soon, Mr. President. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:15.123)
Did the school send the cards to the White House? Yeah. That's very cool. the space shuttle was shot down, were you in school as well? Or when it blew up? Sorry.
Chad Sowash (04:20.502)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (04:27.252)
I was in school and there were actually, yeah, when it blew up, yeah, and there were actually kids watching it live. And luckily our, yeah, our class for some reason, we were out doing something else and it didn't, we weren't watching it. But wow, yeah, all those school kids.
Joel Cheesman (04:34.506)
I was one of
Joel Cheesman (04:49.527)
because I was in school in Houston when that happened. So was a huge deal in Houston and everyone watching and just like the teachers had nothing like, my God, I can't believe this happened. So yeah, these moments in time that happened. Anyway, may you live in interesting times or be chill out in Portugal if you can do
Chad Sowash (04:53.074)
wow. Yeah. Yeah, fuck yeah.
Chad Sowash (05:01.27)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (05:13.035)
Let's hope there are more boring times, okay? More boring times. I like it without assassination attempts and space shuttles blowing up, right? I like it more boring.
Joel Cheesman (05:24.59)
The world's been burning since the world's been turning. My friend is Billy Joel, once, once said, let's get to, some shout out, shall we, what you got.
Chad Sowash (05:31.059)
Stupid. Let me hit it. While we were on stage discussing how AI will change the workforce with Lord Nat Way, there was an announcement happening at the tech talent hiring tech at RecFest with friends and sponsors, Hackajob, where they were unveiling Hackajob intelligence, which is the very first
in blending Gen .ai into their platform to help companies source, schedule, and hire qualified tech talent through the use of an AI co -pilot. I don't know why they call it an AI co -pilot, but that's what I call it.
Chad Sowash (06:11.508)
At the end of the day, most vendors will add up charges to use more advanced tech like this. And I'm happy to say that Hackajob is not. They are evolving their platform. Instead of saying you can have better technology to be able to find talent faster and you've got to pay X to get in the room, they're just including it as part of the evolution of their platform.
I'm currently an advisor of Hackajob and I'm just happy to see them move so quickly in this direction. So as many other platforms we will see, I guarantee you, will upcharge for these types of things. I believe personally it should be blended into the platforms.
Joel Cheesman (06:55.725)
Way to go. Way to go. a job. Way to go. Hack a job. It's good seeing those guys in London a couple of weeks ago. so my shout out, I'm going to get, I'm going to get a little personal. if, if you'll humor me, my, my mom, who passed away four years now, which seems forever ago. she, she was, she struggled with weight all of her adult life.
Chad Sowash (06:59.04)
Winning. yeah, always.
Chad Sowash (07:07.474)
Chad Sowash (07:14.582)
Wow. Wow.
Joel Cheesman (07:23.309)
Probably because of me, it was after having kids that she had issues with her weight. As when she was a teenager, she was a cheerleader. She played sports. Like it wasn't an issue, but she really struggled with weight. and my dad, being the ass that he was at the time, what did not take kindly to her, gaining weight and me as a really young kid, didn't really understand it, but he would, he would buy her like exercise bikes for Christmas, sort of as a like, Hey, get
Chad Sowash (07:33.804)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (07:41.609)
Anyway, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (07:51.501)
You know, get your ass in gear kind of thing. mean, really pretty bad stuff, not to throw my dad into the bus, but it was, it was pretty rough and he would, he would make jokes about it. And me as a kid, I'm five, I'm five, six years old. Yeah, it's yeah. Um, you know, me as a five, six, seven year old dad would make jokes. I would laugh. My sister would also play in, um, didn't think, didn't think anything of it. Now the eighties come along. I'm, I'm 10, 11, 12 years old.
Chad Sowash (07:53.858)
Thank
Chad Sowash (08:01.324)
That's a very boomer though. I mean, it is very boomer. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (08:21.761)
And a guy named Richard Simmons comes along. if you like YouTube, Richard Simmons, if you don't know who he is, like the dude was a force of nature. but more than the force of nature that he was. He, he had empathy for people that were dealing with weight issues and he was a heavy man himself. He had lost weight from exercising and I can remember, being at home with my mom and she was watching, you probably remember these Richard Simmons
Chad Sowash (08:42.476)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Chad Sowash (08:50.964)
yeah.
Joel Cheesman (08:51.329)
He would sit down with overweight people. He would cry with them. They would just, yeah. I mean, it was heart wrenching as a kid. I remember sitting there and my mom crying, watching Richard Simmons crying, watching who he was taught interviewing, crying. Everyone's crying. And in that moment I thought, my God, my mom is really dealing with something heavy. No pun intended.
Chad Sowash (08:56.531)
discussion.
Chad Sowash (09:19.239)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (09:21.221)
And from that moment on, I have empathy, had empathy for my mom. You you've probably never heard me make a fat joke in the time that I've known you because I'm just who I I'm hypersensitive to the issues that overweight people have with their weight. And a lot of that has to do with Richard Simmons. So my shout out is to Richard Simmons who passed away recently. that was the impact that he had on my life. It made me look at my mother.
in a much different light. And I appreciate him for that. And when he passed away, it brought back a lot of those memories for me. so shout out to, to Richard Simmons.
Chad Sowash (10:00.864)
Yeah, a force of nature, no question. The guy was every, he seemed to be everywhere in the eighties. I mean, everywhere. So yeah, and obviously did a lot of good. Obviously did a lot of good. That being said, a lot of good stuff is free stuff. So we have kids, if you don't play, you can't win. So you gotta go to chadcheese .com slash free so that you can win t -shirts from Aaron app.
nice and soft and cuddly with the new Chad and Cheese guns and roses like design with Air Nap on the back. Beer, yes you can win Craft Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. The kids over in Aspen Tech Labs, the ones who pretty much do all the scraping of jobs in our industry. Craft Beer, Whiskey from Tex Colonel, aka Bullhorn who just acquired Tex Colonel. Two bottles of Whiskey from Tex Colonel.
Joel Cheesman (10:29.271)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (10:56.36)
And if it's your birthday, rum from plum. Chadcheese .com slash free. Mm -hmm.
Joel Cheesman (11:09.441)
That's right, Chad. Some listeners are celebrating a birthday this week. Happy birthday goes out to Trent Cotton, Lily Siegel Gardner, David Steven Segal Bernstein, Swarman Dew Halder, Todd Daly, Ben Sagers, Serge Klassen, Thomas Barrett, Morghab Mickels, Tim DeNeen, Bill Fisher, Jason Morris, Jeff Hunter, and George LaRockout with your cock out are celebrating.
Chad Sowash (11:35.595)
Ooooo
Joel Cheesman (11:38.165)
birthday and also don't forget Chad football is right around the corner and our friends at Factory Fix are sponsoring year three of fantasy football with Chad and cheese so I'm pretty excited about that as I know as I know you are as
Chad Sowash (11:41.089)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (11:53.154)
I am, and whether it's your birthday or not, you can enjoy Wreckfest because we're doing Wreckfest to Wreckfest kids. That's right. We just got back from Wreckfest in Neboeuf and our next show event, live event is gonna be at Wreckfest in Nashville for Wreckfest's second US event ever happening on.
September 12th and 13th. So if you're in the US and you've never heard or been to RecFest, you got to go check it out. It's a recruiting festival. Call it recruit a Palooza to some extent. Where talent acquisition teams come to learn about next gen talent and tech, what's happening in the space and it gives tech leaders a chance to have an all hands bonding event with their teams.
And I was speaking with Jamie last week in Neboeuf and he said there are companies that are ordering 50 to 100 plus tickets for their teams to come to RecFest. This year is going to be off the fucking chain.
Joel Cheesman (12:48.681)
Shut.
Chad Sowash (12:52.3)
We're also going to be hosting a VIP event with great people, higher clicks and job pixel at the end of day one at your favorite place, Joel, the Redneck Reviera. More info as we get closer to it. But you can enjoy Wreckfest.
Or you can't, but you gotta go register first, go to ChadCheese .com slash events right up in the header. All you have to do is click register and we hope to see you there. It's gonna be a blast. Nashville is amazing. Get a little Hattie B's in ya.
Joel Cheesman (13:21.054)
That's right. And I've already gotten word that our favorite Scott.
Chad Sowash (13:27.467)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (13:30.241)
That's right. Steven McGrath has already reserved his spot in Nashville. So a party central has already been established. so looking forward to that busy travel schedule. And don't forget Chad data with our friend Toby Dayton at link up. We record that tomorrow. A lot of cool issues going on with the, jobs report. We're going to get down to the bottom of all that. But if there's no more travel news, Chad, I got some.
Chad Sowash (13:30.912)
Yes!
Chad Sowash (13:36.62)
Can't wait. Can't wait.
Chad Sowash (13:45.184)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (13:56.395)
Got some sad news. That's right. It's time to bring out.
Chad Sowash (14:02.398)
Joel Cheesman (14:03.341)
The taps sound by that's right. That's right. Moment of silence here. First blockbuster. And now this Chad red box owned by chicken soup for the soul entertainment. Is there a better name? I think not is closing after a bankrupt bankruptcy shift from chapter chapter 11 to chapter seven liquidation affecting 1000 employees. Chad say it ain't so what you got on the
Chad Sowash (14:17.268)
Hahaha
Chad Sowash (14:25.953)
Mm -hmm.
Joel Cheesman (14:33.91)
of Redbox.
Chad Sowash (14:35.362)
So we just talked about Richard Simmons. This is going back. Redbox, founded in 2002, is nearly the final remnants of the blockbuster age when we had freestanding businesses where you could rent physical movies, which started in VHS form and then moved to DVD and Blu -ray before Netflix, eight blockbusters launched, was streaming. Redbox...
movie vending machines appealed to more rural people who couldn't afford streaming services or they didn't have high speed internet. You could pull up to a McDonald's in Columbus, Indiana and get a Big Mac and stop by the Redbox vending machine to rent a movie, go home, eat, pop it in the DVD. It's truly a bygone era. Blockbuster started in 1985 and at the height of their strength, they had 9 ,000 locations, but only one.
A single location remains and that's in Bend, Oregon. So this to me is a great example of what is happening when we take a look at now the AI era. If vendors don't create solutions infused with this new tech, they're going to go the way of Redbox.
Joel Cheesman (15:48.757)
Ironically, I think it's, it's a documentary on Netflix about the last blockbuster. Am I correct on that? The one that you mentioned? Yeah, that's irony for sure. I've, I had never, I've never rented from red box. it's, it's still in my Kroger, I assume, or my local grocery store. I'm sure, I'm sure it'll be gone soon. There was literally within two out, two miles of my house, a video store up until about a year ago. think COVID finally.
Chad Sowash (15:54.08)
Blockbuster. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (16:16.301)
was the final nail in that coffin. What's really unique to me is how long these changes take place. A lot of people don't remember Netflix back in 2011 launched something called Quickster. They were hoping to dividing. They were going to divide the DVD by mail and the streaming thing separate. Wall Street had
Chad Sowash (16:33.428)
Hahaha.
Joel Cheesman (16:43.181)
fit and people didn't understand it. So they went back to Netflix and Netflix has evolved into mostly a streaming service as opposed to two different brands, which was the right choice. But 2011 was when Netflix said, we're going to do a separate standalone for streaming. And it's taken this long for red box, uh, to finally kind of finally go, go the way of the dodo. Uh, but I've never used it. You and I remember when, you
Chad Sowash (16:58.092)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad Sowash (17:07.379)
Eh?
Joel Cheesman (17:10.529)
going to blockbuster reserving movies when they came out, they came out on a Tuesday. You tried to reserve them for the weekend. You'd get a thing of microwave popcorn or you'd get stuff. I mean, it's like a thing. was like dates were cool. You take your girlfriend to blockbuster. What do you want to watch? You get a stupid rom -com. Those days are over for better or worse, but yeah, red box hardly knew ye, but, you are no more a thousand employees. Like how did they have a thousand employees still?
Chad Sowash (17:22.336)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (17:34.433)
Hahaha
Joel Cheesman (17:38.177)
How did those people not go, okay, our time is limited. I need to get the hell out of here. Maybe they were paid to stick around.
Chad Sowash (17:43.618)
Yeah, well, mean, yeah, I mean, and you have to have somebody who are constantly maintaining those boxes, right? So I guarantee you that's what happened is they were trying to pull out with chapter 11 didn't work and, you know, away you go. So that sucks. But again, bygone era, bygone era.
Joel Cheesman (18:02.539)
Yep, one less box in the world. Let's get to some real news, shall we?
Chad Sowash (18:08.076)
JAPAN!
Joel Cheesman (18:11.661)
Well, Axel Foley may be back in Beverly Hills, but Axel Springer is allegedly breaking up considering spinning off its digital classifieds division, which includes StepStone and Aviv Group. Two minority owners, KKR and its partners, leaving CEO Matthias Dampner and Frieda Springer with the company's media assets. Chad, your thoughts on what we might call the RumSpringer.
Chad Sowash (18:38.114)
Springer kind of feels like when ABBA broke up, doesn't it? No. So this from the Financial Times, quote, over the past year, Axel Springer has axed get it jobs in its German media operations and closed a string of regional offices, even as it's paid out dividends of more than $750 million over the past four years, and quote, it's like Axel Springer.
are bleeding these publications dry. So I think it's good for StepStone, AppCast, Universal, and the rest of them to get the hell away from Axel Springer. And this is, I believe, I'm gonna get back up on my soapbox, this is the perfect time to restructure and make AppCast the leading organization with Chris Forman, the overarching CEO. Then uniting Universal and Bayard, right?
while creating a better European strategy with StepStone, Totaljobs, NIjobs, and the Irishjobs properties. There's a good opportunity here. They can make lemonade out of lemons in this one, but I tell you what, if they keep their current structure, they're gonna continue to, they're gonna continue to, unfortunately, hang on to AppCast, and they're gonna be an anchor. They really, they really need to restructure.
Joel Cheesman (20:10.093)
So the financial times, is where the story came out, did underscore that this is not a done deal. but so let's put that out there, but it's, it, makes a lot of sense. I wish I knew more. This is a very complex company. It's in German, like based in Europe. So I wish I knew more about this than I did, but this is a company that wanted to go public. Step stone KKR came in five, seven years ago. And I think the whole deal was.
we're going to clean this thing up, go public. We're all going to make a bunch of money and it's going to be boats and hoes, you know, for the, for the future. And COVID happened soft job board market. The real owners of this is KKR and the two, the two figureheads that are both billionaires, behind the media properties. This feels like to me right now, the billionaire owners,
Chad Sowash (20:52.705)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (20:58.752)
Right. Yep.
Joel Cheesman (21:08.373)
have these cool media properties, business insider, politico, people will know in the U S but in terms of like Europe and Germany, like the some serious media properties and look rich people when they want to spend money, they either buy sports teams or they buy media. And to me, this feels like the founders, the billionaires, they love those media properties. They love going to the parties. They love saying, Hey, I own such and such. KKR is looking at the classifieds thing.
They're looking at what Apollo's doing in the U S with career builder and monster. And they're saying, we want some of that. We want some of that private equity action, with, with the job, the classified space and like. Stripping it to the bone, selling off for parts. Like we want some of that Apollo action. So I think KKR went to the billionaires founders and the people behind that and said, look, how do we part ways? We'll pay
Chad Sowash (21:45.694)
I'm chop that shit
Joel Cheesman (22:05.759)
Split up, sell our equity back to you and we'll take on the classifieds thing and you guys can look cool and be fancy at parties owning all the media properties. KKR, do they spin this thing like you're talking about and really think about what's the brand? We already know they've changed the colors. They've standardized the colors. I don't know if that was KKR or like planning ahead, but like this thing is, is prime to be spun as a
thing that's really profitable and worthy of going IPO. The market for the most part, KKR stock has been on the upswing, not big time, but like the market seems to like the idea of this. know, KKR wants to be Apollo. The two billionaires on the other side, they want to be Jeff Bezos. They want to own or they want to be Steve Ballmer. They want to own teams and media properties and be cool and be like the European.
you know, cool kids at the party. So I think it's really just, this didn't work out the way we thought it would COVID happened. The market happened the way it was. Let's part ways and, and, and do what we want to do. But I, this feels really complex and I wish I knew more about this, these companies and what's going on. But, but to me, this feels like, yeah, interested in different things. Let's just, just part ways and then, go our own way. See how I brought Fleetwood Mac into your ABBA reference somehow there.
Chad Sowash (23:32.834)
I like it. Go your own way. Go your own
Joel Cheesman (23:38.485)
All right, going from, by the way, have you seen the new Beverly Hills Cop on Netflix? Yeah, haven't either.
Chad Sowash (23:45.32)
No, I haven't yet. Still digging into a little dragon's action over here. How's the dragon? yeah. yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's great.
Joel Cheesman (23:53.217)
Yeah, haven't gone deep yet. Yeah. I watched, I watched the original on the plane back home. It's aged pretty well. It's aged pretty well. Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy was such a genius back, back in the eighties. Let's go back there. All right, let's go to a payroll provider Deel has acquired. Hopefully I'm saying that correctly. Hope you're hope. I hope.
Chad Sowash (24:13.314)
Hopey, hoppy, hoppy.
Joel Cheesman (24:15.821)
Yeah, Hofy Hofy, a London based company specializing in remote office equipment management. can't imagine why I haven't heard of them. Office management, office equipment management for over $100 million. This acquisition is part of Deel strategy to enhance its payroll management services and expand into it management for remote workers, well as grow its workforce by more than 1000 employees. This marks Deels, eighth acquisition in the last
three years. Can you say winning Chad? What are your thoughts on Deel's latest deal?
Chad Sowash (24:49.632)
Yeah, so earlier this year, Deelacquired PaySpace, which is a payroll technology, and then Xavi, engagement and onboarding. This to me is brilliant. And this is a big applause moment for, I think, for Deel, they are an EOR company. They are an employer of record company or an employee of record company.
which helps companies hire talent across the globe. Then after hiring great talent with PaySpace, they can pay them. And then with Zabi, they can onboard them and engage them. But how the fuck do you get them equipment? You've got all the other things done, how do you get that done? And then manage and possibly recover that equipment.
After acquiring payroll and onboarding systems, this had to be one of the bigger pain points for Deel's customer base. So, hence an acquisition. Hofy has 700 clients and is in the black, and this acquisition broadens Desl's total addressable market in an area I do not believe anyone was expecting, although it's a totally natural extension of Deel's business model.
Again, you get them hired, you get them onboarded, you get them paid, and during that onboarding process, how do you get them equipment? Well, now you have an arm that does that. I am in utter awe of this acquisition. It's smart. As Desl is becoming the easy button for companies to hire all over the world, onboard, engage, and then equip talent to do their job on a daily basis. This is, again, this is a big applause for me.
Joel Cheesman (26:29.965)
And it's a reminder that we still have unicorns dancing around in our universe, everybody. I mean, can a company be like just crushing it as much as Deel has in our space? Speaking of IPOs, I can't wait for this one. Hofy is that we're going to call it Hofy, the, the office equipment provider, um, you know, had raised $30 million. Let's say they sold 400 million.
Chad Sowash (26:32.865)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (26:51.426)
Sure. Sure.
Joel Cheesman (26:58.711)
Pretty good deal for them. Pretty good deal actually, I'd say for Deel. One of the founders, Michael Ginzo, had previously served as product manager at Deel. So there was already a connection with one of the founders and Deel, which happens probably more than you think in the world. Definitely not in our space, but yeah, when you leave a company and then found something that they want and then they just call you up and say, hey, can we just buy this and bring you back in? So the investors are very happy.
Chad Sowash (27:13.836)
Good catch. Yeah. yes.
Joel Cheesman (27:27.417)
that that happened. Yeah, look, this is, this is Deel crushing it, making money, hand over fist, providing services that people obviously needed and are looking to do. Office equipment is a pain in the ass. but it's something every company like global, more remote workforce has to deal with. and it's not just here's your laptop, right? There's a lot more to it than that. So a company that could, that could manage
Chad Sowash (27:41.622)
It is.
Chad Sowash (27:51.746)
Phone. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (27:54.219)
I'm sure is a huge, hugely popular service that Deel can now offer to their folks. But look, this is, this is all part of a grand vision of Deel to be the one -stop shop for all companies looking to scale on a global, on a global basis. And they just continue to crush it while I might add we get less and less news every month from the oysters, the remotes, the competitors, if you will, of Deel. So from our perspective, or at least mine,
Chad Sowash (28:00.492)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (28:24.225)
Deel seems to be running away with this thing and who knows who they're going to buy next, but it's going to be a hell of a good time to watch for sure. They are, they are crushing
Chad Sowash (28:33.92)
Yeah.
I think there's a good opportunity, obviously, for some of these other organizations to draft behind them, right? To be somewhat of a pilot fish. I thought it was funny when Deel came out and said, oh, we have $400 million in ARR. And then like a week later, they came and said, I'm sorry about that. We were wrong. That was $500 million in
Joel Cheesman (28:42.561)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (28:56.16)
Right? So, you know, I think it's awesome. They're strong. Hopefully some of these other organizations can kind of mimic and draft behind them because competition is good. Competition is good.
Joel Cheesman (29:09.687)
something interesting about, Deel as well as they make a point of underscoring their head count. Well, most of our organization is like year of efficiency. We're cutting, et cetera. Deel is like, we're adding people and there's a reason for it and we're benefiting from it. And here's how. So just shout out to them on so many levels of, of just, of just doing so well. And, it's fun to watch these guys and, the future is bright for Deel.
The future is bright for a Deel. Let's take a quick break and we'll talk about lattice. So I don't think we've talked about on the show in quite
Chad Sowash (29:41.814)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (29:50.442)
lettuce. I've never heard you talk about lettuce before, yes.
Joel Cheesman (29:51.793)
Lettuce. Get off my plate, lettuce. Lattice announced plans to allow AI agents to be treated as employees on its platform. Let me read that again. Lattice announced plans to allow AI agents to be treated as employees, i .e. people on its platform, but reversed the decision.
After facing online backlash, the company initially aimed to integrate AI agents into its HR ecosystem to ensure accountability and alignment with company goals. However, concerns about the implications for human employees and the treatment of AI agents led to the reversal of the plan. Chad, sounds a little bit like your AI puppy that keeps making a mess on the carpet. What are your thoughts on the move by Lattice?
Chad Sowash (30:39.766)
Yeah, I mean.
I don't like the personification of technology in this way at all, And Lattice is literally trying to make the tech more human and then calling it responsible, right? That's not responsible. That's literally just marketing and product packaging. I think many people saw through this, right? It's like making sex dolls more human. They're not human, but it makes the user feel better in using it, right?
Sarah Franklin, you know, she was asking how are digital workers, you know, onboarded? How are they measured? And what does this mean for my job? And, you know, I like the use of AI helping employees as co -pilots. And in certain positions that only perform routine tasks,
are taken over by AI, then much like when the loom was employed, it made it easier and faster for humans to weave textiles, then today the humans out of the loop and robots are doing the work. So did we name the robot looms? No. Did we give them personnel records? No. And then start giving them reviews? No, because they're fucking robots for God's sakes. They are tools in helping us to get the
Joel Cheesman (31:51.693)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (32:04.241)
done just like you know welders on automobile manufacturing lines right they need audits and they need maintenance scheduled for fuck's sake in the end
If there are less employees in a company, Lattice loses revenue because you have less users in the system, right? So add your digital employees and Lattice can stay relevant. This is way off the mark. They obviously had to turn tail because it was very transparent that really all they were trying to do is continue to add people into their platform so that it was continually used. What they have to do now, I believe, is change their model.
Right? Again, if you see that you were blockbuster and there's a Netflix coming and you have to integrate AI somehow, do it that way. Don't try to make AI into human beings. That's just stupid and it's bullshit. Sorry, sorry, Sarah, but it's stupid. It's bullshit. And you probably know that because you turned around and you, tuck tail.
Joel Cheesman (33:09.089)
reversed. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (33:16.109)
So I want to quote CEO Sarah Franklin's message that she posted on their blog. Quote, today Lattice is making AI history. We will be the first to give digital workers official employee records in Lattice. Digital workers will be securely onboarded, trained, and assigned goals, performance metrics, appropriate systems access, and even a manager, just as any person would be. End
Chad Sowash (33:45.323)
See? Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (33:46.093)
What the hell is going on over there, Chad? Chad, this is a serious company that has raised $330 million. This is what they're doing? I don't understand it. mean, it, we want companies to look bigger than they are to make them feel like we're a big organization because we have all these IE co -pilots that are now employees?
Chad Sowash (33:54.848)
They don't sound serious.
Chad Sowash (34:10.463)
money.
Joel Cheesman (34:13.547)
And by the way, lattice lattice's mission is to manage people and their performance. So let's count people who aren't really people and performance that is AI enhanced. And are you now putting real people against AI people and the AI people performance is so much better than the people people. So at what point do you, as a people, people look at the AI people and go, Holy shit, they are kicking my ass.
Chad Sowash (34:20.108)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (34:42.859)
And here's a dashboard that shows me how much they're kicking my ass, which then tells the management, we can lay off everybody because the AI is kicking everyone's ass. I just don't get this at all. that a serious company, is doing this as innovation is just really stupid. have one company in deal that is acquiring companies that are logical pieces to the bigger puzzle of the business. And then you have lattice who's raised just about as much money.
Chad Sowash (34:46.422)
Might as well leave.
Joel Cheesman (35:12.737)
doing this. So you, if you were a shareholder in both of these organizations, like where would you want to be in terms of your money and your, and your interest? Like this was such a mistake on so many levels. I'm glad they corrected it, but I'm just like, what the hell is going on at lattice that this is what they're drawing up on the, on the whiteboard. And this is what we're doing. Just incredibly, incredibly weird, incredibly
Chad Sowash (35:38.739)
How much time and money did they waste doing this bullshit? I mean, I guarantee you what they saw, right, is what you're talking about. You we need to be able to measure performance. How are we gonna be able to measure performance on AI with these co -pilots coming in, right? So they're like, well, let's feed them into the system.
Just again, they're trying to make much like staffing, right? Traditional staffing hasn't changed for years. Hopefully indeed will impact them. We'll see some disruption. We'll see that change. Latus literally just said, well, we want to keep the platform the way it is, right? So let's just try to get the AI into the traditional mode. No dipshit. You've got to, you've got to change. You've got to evolve and hopefully, you know, they'll get a kick in the ass on this, but I just wonder how much money and man hours they wasted.
pulling this bullshit together.
Joel Cheesman (36:27.693)
It was significant. Just because you can doesn't mean you should everybody doesn't mean that you should. Well, Chad, let's go to our next story. They said the quiet part out loud. As I know you like to say Microsoft diversity and inclusion team was disbanded due to quote, changing business needs and quote, reflecting a broader trend in the tech industry where companies have reduced their focus on DEI initiatives.
Chad Sowash (36:33.696)
Mm -mm. Yes.
Chad Sowash (36:43.819)
Ugh.
Joel Cheesman (36:55.821)
despite maybe previous comments that they've made. The move was highlighted by an internal email that said, quote, work associated with DEI programs are no longer business critical or smart as they were in 2020, end quote. Meanwhile, SHRM, your favorite, has removed equity from its diversity program, now using, quote, IND, end quote, for inclusion and diversity instead of DEI.
The move has sparked backlash shocker from HR professionals and a petition for members to cancel their sherm memberships. The hits just keep on coming. Chad, what are your thoughts?
Chad Sowash (37:36.77)
So I would go with Sherm first, because this is very evident. Sherm is a lobbying organization for the rich, which is why equity was removed, much like trickle -down experts Milton Freeman and Thomas Sowell, who were just highly paid shills for American corporation to drive money away from hardworking Americans and into the pockets of CEOs who saw 1 ,500 % wage increases, and American workers in the same time period got
Joel Cheesman (37:40.045)
Too easy.
Chad Sowash (38:06.21)
14 % wage shaft. Johnny C. Taylor is a modern day corporate shill doing everything he can to disrupt what workers need.
so that he can fill his own pockets because if he preaches equity, that means some of the 1 .2 million in compensation he's making should legitimately go back into the pockets of sherm workers and Johnny needs fast cars and expensive suits kids. So equity ain't being preached at sherm. Now, from a Microsoft standpoint, when I was building veteran hiring,
systems for hiring companies, Fortune 500 companies, we experienced some hiring companies spending millions of dollars.
that was nothing but warm, fluffy bullshit. Those companies didn't care about truly identifying and hiring and retaining veterans. They just wanted to look good in the public eye. It's all about optics in the moment and not results for companies, obviously like Microsoft. And when Microsoft spends $150 million on DEI, it sounds like a lot. It sounds like a ton of cash, but it's only a little over 0 .2 % of the
than $72 billion of their annual net income in 2023. Plus, Microsoft has 220 ,000 employees, which means they were spending less than $700 per employee to quote unquote, make DEI happen.
Chad Sowash (39:40.02)
So it's bullshit, it's a mirage, and we should never take a CEO for their word. Outcomes are what matters, not this bullshit, fluffy stuff.
Joel Cheesman (39:57.815)
So you and I have been doing this show for seven plus years. And in that time, we've seen this, this issue come full circle. We saw the murder of George Floyd. saw the me too movement. saw that spark Confederate flags being removed from government buildings. We've seen the Cleveland Indians become the Cleveland guardians. I mean, there was a, there was a huge pendulum swift into diversity, equity, inclusion, and embracing it. You and I have done many interviews over the years.
In terms of the importance of this issue, what it means to particularly people in those, in those target markets, in terms of advancing. now we've seen the pendulum start to swing the other way. And you and I called it when the Supreme court reversed its affirmative action, mandate or law that we knew as soon as that happened, we're going to see more schools go back to the way things were, even though they were all touting at the time, we're not changing any of
any of our rules in terms of affirmative action, letting in people of color and diversity. I think time will tell still on that, but I would imagine if you dug into the metrics of the incoming student bodies, they're slowly becoming more of what they used to be. And we also said that as a, as a reaction to that corporate America would soon start embracing going back to the way things were. Boards would start being all white again, all male again, and things would,
go back to status quo. One thing that changed that was a 2015 McKinsey report that diverse companies are more profitable. And for since then us and news outlets have talked about, look, companies that are more diverse or more profitable. Well, just last month, the wall street journal published a story entitled diversity was supposed to make us rich.
Not so much. a quote from that article is when management consulting firm McKinsey declared in 2015 that it had found a link between profits and executive racial and gender diversity, it was a breakthrough. The research was used by investors, lobbyists and regulators to push for more women and minority groups on boards and to justify investing in companies that appointed them. Unfortunately, the research doesn't show what everyone thought it showed.
Joel Cheesman (42:19.667)
End quote. And the story goes on to talk about how diversity in corporate America does not equal more profits or the study has been flawed. No shocker that now we're seeing companies like Microsoft who should be a reflection of the world because they sell their products to the world. Say things like diversity is not that important. The fact that shurm is playing politics with what we call it
Surprising and not surprising to your point. Shurm is based in DC. Johnny likes to go to the parties, just like the, the actual Springer folks like to go to parties and talk about who they are and what they do. They have to sort of bend to what they think the political winds are doing as opposed to having a North star and doing what tried and what members, think the organization should do. what looks to be a, a
Second term, currently means that this trend, I think will continue to go in the other way. you and I will certainly talk about that as well, but you and I've seen this come full circle. It's a shame. feel awful for folks that thought, maybe this time it's different. Sorry. It apparently
Chad Sowash (43:37.28)
Yeah, yeah. mean, we're seeing obviously, you know, with
Women not having control of their own bodies, their healthcare decisions. We're seeing books being banned. mean, there's a wave of shit that's coming. Again, I'm just asking for more boring, right? This is crazy. this is, a girl dad, right? I mean, this for me and my girls, this means something. And then for individuals that are friends of mine who...
Joel Cheesman (43:56.501)
You
Chad Sowash (44:10.395)
Not only that, but females, they should be paid equitably, right? Equity means something.
And what they're saying is equity does. And they've taken the E out of everything, right? They moved, especially the shurm. went instead of DEI, they went I, inclusion, then D, because diversity isn't as important, right? It is. It, truthfully, it is. One thing, you know, we were talking with Jim Durbin yesterday and he said, you know, well, we're also starting to see where America is becoming less white. And I appreciate that. But the thing
Joel Cheesman (44:46.146)
Mm -hmm.
Chad Sowash (44:47.764)
at the corporate, the board side and the CEO side, it's not. The people who are driving and controlling America, that's not the case. So yeah, this is, to me, it's sad and hopefully, you know, we don't get another Trump term because if we do, this is gonna go down a very, very bad rabbit
Joel Cheesman (45:08.193)
Yeah, until we vote with our wallets and vote with our votes. I'm afraid a lot of things are not going to change. My heart goes out to a lot of our listeners, Stubbsy, Joanne, Eva, that we know, these issues are at the forefront. must be heartbreaking for them to sort of see things go back to the way they were. All right. Well, let's lighten things up with some fast food. Shall we? We'll be right
Chad Sowash (45:15.49)
Breathe. Yeah.
Chad Sowash (45:21.408)
Yes, it's important.
Joel Cheesman (45:33.389)
Oh, Chad, it's a good day to be a Cincinnati chili lover. Skyline Chili, if you haven't had it, you don't know. If you do know, know, uh, a Cincinnati based fast food chain known for its signature chili served over spaghetti was voted the top regional fast food chain in USA Today's, uh, 10 best readers choice awards. Other notable other notables include Hattie B's at a Nashville, one of our faves in and out.
Chad Sowash (46:00.47)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (46:01.865)
And so Cal another favorite and water burger as Texans will know very, very well, Chad, you miss all these fast food places in Portugal. Don't you? What's your take on the move out of Ohio's skyline?
Chad Sowash (46:16.29)
Yeah, I do know that when I go to Nashville, I will be going to Hattie B's. The thing is, Hattie B's is not fast food. It is 10 locations and it is brilliant and wonderful. Now I am not going to get.
the shut the cluck up hotness because that will burn me that will burn me to the ground. Although I do love me some some Hattie B's and when we did the hack a job booze crews we had Hattie B's along with yeah along with bourbon and beer and stuff like that. So I'm looking forward to Hattie B's in and out water burger depending on where you're at in the in the country is is where Joel is at whenever he gets a chance whether it's in the airport.
Joel Cheesman (46:33.623)
Mm -hmm.
Joel Cheesman (46:43.094)
Yeah.
Chad Sowash (47:01.166)
or it's the very first stop after leaving the airport.
Joel Cheesman (47:05.825)
Yeah, I do. I do love, I do love a good skyline. you gotta go five way regular with the habanero cheese. You got to spice it up and they have hot sauce on the table, which I appreciate. And you got to go with the Coney. If they have the spicy sausage in season, you got to go with that. If not, you got to go with the regular, but you got to have the habanero cheese on that as well. And of course they have the crackers and they have Dr. diet Dr. Pepper.
Chad Sowash (47:12.843)
Mm.
Chad Sowash (47:31.399)
We need a Cheeseman menu like selections like what would Cheeseman have? Yes.
Joel Cheesman (47:33.695)
Yes, this is the Cheeseman review, love. Yeah. Love, love Skyline love Goldstar, which is their competitor in Cincinnati. We go every time that we're there. interestingly, I was curious. I went to the site and, and interesting about all these, all these restaurants I mentioned, there's a great story. Skyline, you know, 1940s, I think they were feeding, you know, people on the working on the river. And so there's a rich history there.
In and out, know that history, South, know, South California, Southern California, that whole story there. Waterburger, if you're in Texas, that's a local story that people love. but I went to do some research and I went to go look at their career section and they are interestingly a paradox, customer. I go to the, I go to the career site and Olivia, Olivia's right there. And I'm like, I'm going to test Olivia. And I said, Olivia, how do you take your skyline chili? Thinking it's, if you know it, it's like, it's three or
three, four or five way. And it's whether you get beans or the other stuff. And she didn't know what I was talking about. She didn't know. So I was like, all right, paradox. All right, paradox. Let's get on your chili game a little better. If someone asks how she takes her chili, make sure she has a good answer for that. Not just, I don't understand what kind of job are you looking for? Which leads me Chad to this week's dad joke. Are you ready?
Chad Sowash (48:31.436)
Yes.
Chad Sowash (48:57.258)
No, go ahead.
Joel Cheesman (48:57.729)
You you're not ready, but you're ready. All right, how do you measure the heaviness of a red hot chili pepper?
How do you measure the heaviness of a red hot chili
Chad Sowash (49:13.791)
and
Joel Cheesman (49:16.599)
Give it away, give it away, give it away now. it? Weigh, W -E -I -G -H, you gotta weigh it to get the heaviness. Give it away, give it away, give it away, give it away now. That's right people. Dad Joe Scalore and with that, we out.
Chad Sowash (49:31.946)
We out!
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