Strap in listener — this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast is coming in hot. Joel and Chad team up with Gina Alioto from Shaker Recruitment Marketing to break down experiential marketing — the kind of branding that hits harder than a linebacker and sticks with you longer than your worst hangover.
Gina pulls no punches, laying out why employer branding feels stuck in a '90s time warp and why Shaker’s Vision Report might be the wake-up call your brand desperately needs. They also dig into why investing in your brand during an economic dumpster fire isn’t just smart—it’s mandatory if you want to avoid getting smoked by the competition.
The conversation gets gritty as they explore how tech and analytics could make recruitment as personalized as your old man’s backyard BBQ, the tangled mess of DEI (spoiler: it’s more complex than putting together IKEA furniture without swearing), and why sustainable innovation needs to be as essential to your business as that first cup of coffee.
By the end, they're throwing down a challenge to talent leaders everywhere: stop sitting on your hands and start making moves. Because in the business world, standing still is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. Don’t miss it.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:30.395)
What time it is, it is the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, Chad Sowash is in the house, back in America. Watch out, you have been warned. And we are giddy to welcome Gina Alioto, VP and Head of Marketing at Shaker Recruitment Marketing to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Gina, happy new year and welcome to the podcast.
Chad (00:40.385)
No.
Chad (00:45.015)
There she is.
Gina Alioto (00:55.726)
Thanks so much, happy to be here. I'm Gina. I lead brand and marketing for Shaker Recruitment Marketing. And I have about 10 years of experience in consumer brand. Then I moved over to B2B about 10 years ago. So now I've been at Shaker and it is one of the best places that I've ever worked.
Chad (01:13.805)
Talk about the events though that you've actually led over the years. Talk about that so our listeners actually understand who Gina, the experiential genius that Gina really is. Let's hear it, let's hear it.
Joel (01:20.857)
Our listeners know the gangster that you are.
Gina Alioto (01:27.886)
Well, I've worked with brands like Heineken, iHeart Media, the Tribeca Film Festival, Emirates, and I've been in this industry for a really long time before I went professional, before I went pro. it was, brand and marketing was an area that I was always interested in. I always wanted to be in advertising. But then, back then, I was learning about commercials and print. And none of that actually is the core anymore.
I was going to college right at the time of the rise of the internet. And I grew into and grew up with what is now known as experiential marketing, but then it wasn't called experiential marketing. And it was this blend of advertising and entertainment. And that's how that shaped my career. So I started actually in radio, believe it or not. You were talking about earlier about
before podcasts existed. I'd like to believe that at our college radio station, we created podcasts. We invented podcasts in college. Yeah. And then I was doing events for the college and our annual Spring Fling Festival, which is 2000 people in New York City, and then worked a little bit for CBS radio.
Joel (02:36.347)
College Radio. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Gina Alioto (02:52.766)
and was doing Super Bowl events. then my goal, I always wanted to work for the Grammys. I didn't get to achieve that career goal yet, but I did work for the Latin Grammys. did work for Heineken and did a bunch of experiential work at Coachella Ultra Music Festival, pretty much any festival in the US. Then I did some work for the Latin Grammys. Yeah, that was a career high for me, a career highlight.
Joel (03:14.105)
I'm sorry, did you say Latin Grammys?
Joel (03:21.871)
We call it a day.
Gina Alioto (03:22.158)
And then I did work for the Tribeca Film Festival in the US and in Qatar.
Chad (03:28.343)
So talk a little bit about Coachella. I that one that is just sticking out and help our listeners understand what really experiential marketing is, what it feels like.
Gina Alioto (03:40.174)
So my definition of experiential marketing is taking a flat logo, right? Taking a flat brand, flat colors, right? It's on the page and bringing it into a four dimensional space where it lives, it breathes, it smells, it tastes, it hears, and you create memories for people. So it's the next level of brand and marketing where you're creating a memory.
Chad (03:49.482)
huh.
Gina Alioto (04:08.576)
and your brand makes a closer connection with your audience. That to me is the definition of experiential marketing.
Chad (04:16.941)
So I think for us that the the Chad and cheese brand would be like an escape room. Be like an escape room with a with with beer. Yes, and you can't get out and you can't get out.
Joel (04:21.691)
What does that smell like?
Gina Alioto (04:25.784)
Breathe.
Joel (04:25.979)
Smells like beer and regret basically. So are you in meetings with employers saying like, want people to smell that employment brand and what is an employment brand smell like?
Gina Alioto (04:29.954)
Yes, exactly.
Gina Alioto (04:38.886)
So I am not explicitly asking that, but for myself as an experiential marketer, I am certainly thinking about when I'm creating space, what does it smell like? What does it feel like? I am thinking about that level of detail. What are people doing? Where are they going? How are they getting there? Every it needs to engage all of the senses. The best experiential marketing engages all of the senses and and the best.
Chad (04:59.209)
All senses.
Gina Alioto (05:08.75)
is unknown to the audience. You just feel it. You just feel it. So for example, the experiential activation at RECFest that I designed for Shaker, for Shaker Recruitment Marketing, you didn't think about the music or how it smelled in our tent or how you felt in our tent or what was happening in the tent, all of those things. You just knew how you felt and what everybody was saying. That was the best experience. That's the end goal.
That was the best experience. Why? Well, I knew exactly who was going to be at the event. I know what makes them happy. I know it creates memories and put all of those ingredients together. And that is a great experience when people walk away and they're still talking about it. it's one of the things that I loved about Coachella because they understand their audience and that event is designed for them. And then every brand that's there, sometimes they represented different brands, but for Heineken, for example,
You have to think about the Heineken customer at that event. What are they looking to do? What's going to create memories for them? What's going to make that connection with the brand stronger? So.
Joel (06:19.067)
Do conversations with employers feel like they've progressed since you started or do feel like it's still sort of ground zero with all the things you're talking about? Do they understand what brand is more now than they used to or are you still kind fighting an uphill battle?
Gina Alioto (06:33.742)
So in my experience both in consumer marketing and now the second half of my career has been in B2B in recruitment marketing, I am still seeing a huge gap between the employer branding recruitment marketing space and the let's call it mainstream brand and marketing. And I'm puzzled by it and it's something that Chad and I talk about all the time because as a B2B
brand and marketer as a brand leader and marketing leader. And then I'm very close with our talent acquisition and HR team. And I make it my business to be partners with them. I'm not seeing that same camaraderie and partnership for brands and their brand marketers and the...
and the recruitment marketers. I'm not seeing that connection.
Chad (07:32.257)
Isn't that on us though? Isn't that on us to be able to get them to understand why we're so important? Because I think it's one of those things where, you know, we're sitting and waiting for marketing, for brand, for the CEO, for the entire C-suite to just realize how important we are as opposed to getting out of the corner in the field of position, standing up, stiffening our spine and actually taking the message to them. I mean, it just feels like we're not doing enough of that. What do you think about that?
Gina Alioto (08:02.99)
think that you're spot on and that it is a complex situation. There are complexities here, many moving parts. The biggest thing that I see are separate departments, separate budgets, and then human resources, formerly personnel, is seen viewed as a budget spending.
It's a spending arm, cost center. So those perceptions are tough to break. I think it is an uphill battle and will continue to be unless those complexities are resolved at the business level.
Chad (08:33.612)
Center.
Joel (08:33.686)
Line item, yeah.
Chad (08:49.901)
Well, and this launches us into the vision report because we actually talk about that. Well, and before we just start jumping just directly into it, tell us about the vision report. What is it? Why was it created? And will we see more of it?
Gina Alioto (09:04.664)
So Shaker Recruitment Marketing created the Vision Report, and this is a report that brings together the brightest minds from recruitment marketing subject matter experts, talent leaders, all of the leaders in talent acquisition, recruitment marketing, employer branding, technology founders. So all of the technology tools and solutions, the founders and CEOs contributed to this report.
analysts and influencers like yourself Chad, shameless plug, and all of the analysts and influencers in our space. This is the first report of its kind to bring together the entire industry. And this year we asked this whole audience, what is your number one best piece of advice for talent leaders in the year ahead? And brought together all of their ideas, what's on their mind, what's their best piece of advice and what's their vision.
for the year ahead in recruitment marketing.
Joel (10:04.507)
What were some of the things in the report that stood out to you, maybe surprised you, things that were highlights?
Gina Alioto (10:10.602)
The number one biggest theme is pretty much what Chad just finished saying about take action, be bold. There's this underlying sense of urgency to act now. So those are things that I think we are all feeling and it's just really well articulated, especially by the talent acquisition and employer branding leaders and that voice their views in this report. One of the things that
was surprising to me is that we have this sense of urgency to do something, act now, be bold, and not necessarily the next level of, then how? How do we do that?
Chad (10:55.159)
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that we've seen with like Simon Sinek over the years, right? He said, find your why. He never said how after you find your why. And that's one of the things that I think leaders really have struggled with is yes, action versus inaction. We need to take action. It's like.
Joel (10:55.429)
curious.
Chad (11:15.605)
And that's where, again, having leaders in this space to be able to provide mentorship, guidance, experience, those types of things is incredibly important.
Joel (11:27.163)
And I think direction, you know, one of things, uh, one of the things from reading the report, like brand investment was a, was a real highlight for me that people were focusing on that. And that has really changed over the years. mean, brand investment used to be a cool stock photo in our display ad and the Chicago Tribune. And it is something very different today. And I think part of your job is translating. What does brand investment mean? Let's dig into that a little bit. When you talk with two clients and they talk about investing in the brand, what does that mean?
Gina Alioto (11:56.856)
So investing in your brand means how your brand is formed and activated across every marketing touch point, across every channel. And it's a loaded topic because typically either in down markets or in times of uncertainty, brand is often the first thing that is cut or pushed to the back burner.
It hurts me as a brand and marketing leader because when I see those times, that is the time to invest in brand and marketing. And so sometimes your organization might choose to not invest in brand, but I think that is the time where you should be investing more in brand and building those long-term relationships with your audience so that when they, and this also speaks to the passive job seeker market. You're building your brand.
getting to be known so that when a candidate is ready to make a decision or if they choose to come to your brand, your brand is the one that is top of mind for them. And building that, and it's tough too because sometimes it's not always obvious to brands to invest in brand, especially what we were just talking about experiential, that requires a huge budget.
And that is a huge brand investment. And I think that's another reason why we're not really seeing so much experiential marketing in employer branding and recruitment marketing, because those budgets are not there for those purposes. They don't see the value in that type of activation. Some do. Some of the really, really smart brands do, but not all of the brands. I think now certainly, if you haven't already for talent acquisition and employee branding leaders, now is the time to invest in.
your employer brand if you have not already or if you're not on that path.
Chad (13:53.741)
Well, I mean, you talk about investment. If you are working incredibly closely with big brand, big marketing, then that can be something that is a combined effort because as you were trying to push the brand and you're trying to market out to the, you your customer, whoever that might be, you have to remember that those individuals who are coming that top talent that's coming in to actually develop and deploy and sell and service your brand and your customers. Well,
they need to know that too. And that is a great way to actually say, look, this is not just something that we use at one expo, right? This is something, perspective-wise, that we put in HQ, that we have talent come in and check out before they actually go through an interview or what have you. I there are great ways to actually do that.
Gina Alioto (14:40.81)
Mm-hmm. There's so many great ways to actually do that. And in an ideal world, the employer brand would talk with their mainstream brand person. But I think we also need to consider that the brand and marketing mainstream department might also be feeling the pinch because marketing is being scrutinized more than ever. And so if they might also be feeling the pain.
I do think though there is value in having a conversation about what already exists and where can we exchange resources. But I don't necessarily believe that employer branding will easily be able to get budget or share budget from mainstream marketing. The way things, the way the organizations are currently set up.
Joel (15:31.707)
Another highlight from the report was, quote, focus on the needs of real people. What does that mean? And what does that mean in a world that's progressively getting to a place where applying is automated and you have services like lazy apply? And it's not about what the brand is. It's just about how many companies can I apply to before I get a bite? Talk about real people and maybe automation in that process.
Chad (15:32.706)
recording.
Gina Alioto (16:00.504)
So what I hear from the talent leaders that shared their visions in this report, the technology needs to enable us, empower us to deliver better, more personalized experiences and not necessarily make it more...
so transactional where you completely lose the human touch. I think even just in that quote, in and of itself, is very telling that we're saying focus on the needs of real people. The fact that we need to put the word real before people, doesn't that say a ton in and of itself? Instead of saying focusing on the needs of people, the fact that we're putting real people, that emphasis on needing the human back in there,
Joel (16:42.597)
Yeah.
Gina Alioto (16:52.768)
we're seeing that it's a huge tectonic shift with the introduction of AI and how rapidly it's moving. And I think that talent acquisition leaders need to embrace it and act now exactly what the report says and urges us to do. And that those that do embrace it, but in a way where it will empower you to deliver better, more personalized experiences, those are the ones that are going to win.
Joel (17:00.411)
Mm-hmm.
Gina Alioto (17:21.218)
those that just kind of invest in a bunch of AI tools and then don't really understand the strategy, their strategy behind it and have a clear vision on that first, you might end up or likely will end up having a more transactional experience. And you might find that out too late or down the line when you already have some brand damage.
Chad (17:39.959)
That's a great point because if you think about it before AI or really tech in the automation side of the house, you still have the black hole because people can't scale, right? Whether they're real people or not people, we need scale. And AI, if we're using AI automation, some of these platforms that are orchestrating and they're created process-wise and messaging-wise,
to be able to give that individual a better experience because going into the black hole is horrible experience. And that's what we've gotten used to. And it's funny because we talk about candidates ghosting us. Where do you think they learned that from? They learned it from us because we ghosted them, right? So yeah, I got it from you. The more you know. But at the end of the day, I mean, that experience today,
Joel (18:24.717)
I learned it from you, Dad. I learned it from you. The more you know.
Chad (18:35.681)
has been, it's entirely different. And we're starting to talk to TA leaders who are really, I mean, they're glowing because they're using some of these platforms that have AI and automation because they're getting to talent faster, their NPS scores are going up. And again, you can't be afraid of moving forward. You have to take a look at the tool. So that tool being AI or whatever platform that is,
for Shaker and for these different TA leaders, what was the response you were getting? Because we're hearing that inaction isn't something that we can deal with. Are you seeing them asking more questions and actually moving more into the direction of not set it and forget it technology, but new, more fluid technology, whether it's AI, automation, whatever it might be?
Gina Alioto (19:27.84)
Yes, I do see questions, but I would expect and hope to see even more, which I think is one of the messages in this, by doing this vision report to really push the talent leaders to ask more questions. And in the report, we say how speculation provokes thought and innovation. It's the speculation that provokes the thought and innovation and getting
Chad (19:33.997)
Mm-hmm.
Gina Alioto (19:57.944)
curious and asking the bold questions. And I think sometimes we're a little bit too hesitant to, we're kind of waiting to see what might happen. So we're really urging the talent leaders to ask those questions, get curious. The connection for me to what you just shared, Chad, is the analytics, which is another theme in this report and how important analytics are.
Joel (20:19.609)
Mm-hmm.
Gina Alioto (20:23.274)
and front ending your analytics strategy. So, and working backwards from there. So say putting analytics as your priority. Cause I think all too often it's let's find the right solution and then we'll have the, the analytics that we need. Instead ask, what do you need to know? What do you need to know about and how will you measure success and what are your performance metrics?
And what is that business value that you're going to create, work backwards from there and find the right tools that are going to help you do that and get the analytics because that visibility will help you be bold and help you. Yeah.
Chad (21:01.271)
Yeah. Well, now, number because there are six things that are happening here and one of them is measure success with relevant metrics. And again, putting relevant in there kind like real people, relevant metrics, I think that says a lot because we use a lot of metrics that aren't relevant to the C-suite, which means we're not really getting our message across them how we're actually impacting the bottom line. So, talk a little bit about that. Measure success with the relevant metrics.
Joel (21:15.833)
Hmph.
Joel (21:26.715)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (21:30.989)
What do TA leaders actually mean about this?
Gina Alioto (21:34.542)
Yes, and you can get analytics and have data. You could be drowning in data and it's not the relevant metrics that you need for business success or that matter to the business. So I would first be build a close partnership with your CFO and understand, and your finance department, like understand what is the business focused on?
and understand how to build your operation in that context that's relevant to your business and what matters. That is what we mean by relevant, how close it is to the business success, which I think is another area that's a pain point for talent acquisition, employer branding, and recruitment marketing. How do you better connect your operation to the business value and speak that same language? And it's hard to do, it's not easy.
Joel (22:29.763)
Yeah. Is there a real world example with a client or maybe just something that you're aware of where they've taken data and really changed their strategy around branding?
Gina Alioto (22:39.17)
For sure. And it does. It does change the strategy and it impacts your strategy. So at Shaker Recruitment Marketing, we have an analytics function where we can bring together your various tools into one cohesive dashboard where you can actually have visibility onto how all of your tools are performing. And our analytics team works with all of the customers that we have to best translate what they're doing into
the business value, the value that it's contributing to the business. And I think that armor equips the talent leaders with being able to have better conversations with the other stakeholders within your organization. And I think only through getting a handle on your analytics, wrapping your arm around analytics, only with that is how you can be bold, the main theme of the report, be bold, take action.
I really think you can only do that, get a seat at the table, which we've been talking about for years now, right? In this industry, only with your wrapping your arms around the data and speaking the same language as your stakeholders and proving that business value. That's the only way I think you can be be bold. And it's just one piece too, because the data is only one piece, but it's a big one.
Joel (23:38.658)
seat at the table.
Joel (24:07.547)
I promised myself I wouldn't get political, but God damn it. It's everywhere. I'm curious your thoughts, you know, I don't want to say death of DEI, but let's say it's on life support. Uh, and we have headlines every week. We talk about it on our show about companies that are abandoning it, or at least the label DEI. We know that a lot of companies are still doing it, but they're sort of spinning it differently, rebranding it. I'm just curious what kind of conversations you guys are having with companies around.
Dei changing the brand of it, still doing it undercover. Like what, what are companies talking about on the Dei front or are they abandoning it altogether?
Gina Alioto (24:45.676)
Yeah, I hear you. And by the way, it's almost impossible to not get political because it is political. so you're right, Joel. So DENI had before it was labeled or branded DENI, right? We all saw that the rise of those programs. I think many of the companies had the best intentions and truly wanted to
drive change in their organizations. I do believe that. And that we all know, talk about the data. We all know that organizations that have more diverse workforces have better business success. There's plenty of data that points to that. So I think by eliminating DE &I programs entirely or the death of DE &I, like you said, if we're looking at it from a business value perspective and all of those...
metrics that are out there that have proven that organizations that have a more diverse workforce are more successful, to me, that fact is a truth. That's a truth. That doesn't go away. So we can get rid of the label, sure. We don't have to call it D-E-N-I anymore, okay? I think some organizations, or what I've been hearing from talent leaders, they are asking,
Are they still allowed to do DE &I with this executive order if it passes? Are they going to actually get in trouble for not following these rules, you know, and having these programs? So I think that's an interesting angle. But for me, it's a truth that the more diverse your organization is, the more successful it is. That can't go away, or it doesn't go away. And I think, unfortunately, if organizations do rid of their DE &I programs and then you have
Joel (26:10.149)
Hmm.
Joel (26:16.677)
Yeah.
Gina Alioto (26:36.504)
just a more like-minded, a workforce, homogenous, then you might not have business success and then we'll just repeat the cycle in 15 years from now. That would be really tragic.
Joel (26:39.962)
Homogenous.
Chad (26:51.031)
Yes, it'd be more than tragic, that's for sure. Especially if you're trying to pivot from one administration to the next administration. You already know, your company should already know what works. And if it doesn't, well, that's on you, right? So yeah, the thing that I definitely wanna end up with, because I think it's incredibly important, is have a sustainable innovation plan. What does that mean? Sustainable innovation plan.
Gina Alioto (27:03.726)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chad (27:16.941)
Do is that is that like a CoE you have a center of excellence that you create? Do you have experts on staff? How do you how do you actually not just have a sustainable innovation plan? How do you execute on that plan?
Gina Alioto (27:32.93)
Yes, and for me, the key word here is sustainable because I think what we're feeling based on the responses to the vision report is this undertone of, okay, there's things that are rising right now that we need to act on, but what is the plan for the long term? Where's that sustainability? And innovation needs to be, and the urgency in the report, innovation needs to be ingrained in your strategy.
So that needs to be at the forefront of every area of your business in order to be long lasting, in order to run for the long term. And I think this is another one of those complex topics that has many moving parts because there is some things in your organization and your setup that you can control and other things that you can't. So I think for anything, if you're in talent acquisition, for anything that's within your scope that you can impact.
Asking the question, how are we innovating here? What are we doing to invest? So for example, what you said is center of excellence or what committees or programs are we running to make sure that we're staying ahead of what's trending in this area? Same for employer branding, same for recruitment marketing. And having a plan around that and not just saying, yes, we're going to be innovative. asking the question, but how? What does that look like for us? And what is that going to work within our setup?
And again, it's not easy. We're talking about heavyweight topics. And the people that contributed to this report like Fountain Blue, FedEx, there's some really great pieces of Sony entertainment. There's some really great pieces of advice on how to do that from these talent leaders.
Joel (29:19.405)
Gina Alioto everybody, VP and head of marketing at Shaker recruitment. Gina, for those that want to connect with you or learn more about Shaker, maybe get their hands on this vision report. Where do you send them?
Gina Alioto (29:31.426)
Yes, so please visit shaker.com to learn more about Shaker, which is a recruitment marketing agency. And feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn, backslash Gina Alioto.
Joel (29:43.739)
Enough said, Chad, that's another one in the can. We out.
Chad (29:47.117)
We out.