You know 'em. You love 'em. It's prediction time for 2023, and we're not messing around this year. That's why we brought on J.T. O’Donnell, AKA "Nostro'Donell," Founder & CEO at Work It Daily to share prediction duty with the boys. Hey, a female perspective is a good thing, trust us. In addition to making 2023 predictions, we go over what we got right and wrong in 2022. As usual, LinkedIn, Indeed, Monster, iCIMS, Greenhouse, Web3 and much more get highlighted. And we may or may not have been drinking on this episode, not that that's a bad thing. Cheers!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Intro (0s):
Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle lot, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel (20s):
Oh, yeah. Predictions are never wrong. They just haven't happened yet. Hey, boys and girls, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Where the hell's my flying car" Cheeseman.
Chad (33s):
This is Chad "Crystal Ball" Sowash.
J.T. O'Donnell (35s):
I am J.T. "Nostradamus" O'Donnell. I didn't say that right. I tried.
Chad (41s):
Nostra Donnell.
Joel (41s):
Nostra Donnell.
J.T. O'Donnell (42s):
Thank you so much for that name. Great start.
Joel (45s):
We're off to a great start in '23. Anyway, on this week's show, you know him. You love him. It's the 2023 prediction show. Yeah, let's do this. J.T., already throwing onion at the show. Way to go. Way to go.
Chad (1m 4s):
I love it. I love it.
J.T. O'Donnell (1m 6s):
Well, I didn't get to pick my own name. What can I say?
Joel (1m 7s):
Promise you'll still share this to your 2 billion followers or whatever it is up to now.
J.T. O'Donnell (1m 12s):
Maybe. Well, we're doing videos, so yes, it's happening. It's gotta happen.
Joel (1m 17s):
Some of our listeners don't know you. This is a very important seat that you sit in, The Prediction Show. This is no joke.
J.T. O'Donnell (1m 25s):
I know.
Joel (1m 25s):
Give the listeners a little bit about you, where they could find out more. Give us a Twitter bio on J.T. and what does J.T. stand for, number one.
J.T. O'Donnell (1m 33s):
Yeah. First of all, I did think it was a joke when I got the email that, "Would you like to be on the show Predictions?" Thank you. J.T. stands for my maiden name. Janine Tanner, but my name is spelled oddly so people always butcher it. You know when they call up and say your name right? I gave up, started going by J.T., and it stuck. That's how I got the name. I've been in the industry. It's just nobody remembers me. I was in staffing, recruiting, and 20 years ago, I decided to hop to the other side and start to become an advocate for the worker because I just knew people needed to learn a little bit more. They were at a disadvantage. That's what I've been doing for 20 years. Then stealthily, in the scene, have been working on some stuff to come back to the other side.
J.T. O'Donnell (2m 15s):
Here I am and now working in recruitment marketing and employer branding space.
Joel (2m 21s):
You are marvelous for 20 years in the industry. I just wanna say that in a non-threatening way.
Chad (2m 25s):
Guess you know why? Because you started when she was three. That's why. In a non cancelling way because this is January. I don't wanna get canceled already in 2023.
Joel (2m 36s):
How are you gonna get canceled? Although J.T. has encouraged us to drink on this show, so who knows where the hell our final prediction will go.
J.T. O'Donnell (2m 44s):
I did. Bring it.
Joel (2m 46s):
Blanton's in Laro. It's gonna be a fun show. It's gonna be a fun show, everybody.
Chad (2m 50s):
Yes, very much. Okay, let's kick this off. 2022 predictions, which we had. We always have something to say, but it doesn't mean that they're always right. I'm gonna go ahead and jump into mine because it's partially right.
Joel (3m 2s):
Let get the wrong buzzer ready. Let me warn this there. Okay, there we go. All right.
Chad (3m 9s):
My first prediction was a paradox twofer, because they just got funding. They had a couple of acquisitions the year before and I knew they were gonna come into 2022 just rolling. I said that they would acquire a European tech company. None of that shit happened, but my second part of it was that they would reposition away from just being a point solution and being more of a major competitor to the applicant tracking system providers, which I can say they definitely have done.
Joel (3m 43s):
Yeah, that sounds like a halfsie.
Chad (3m 45s):
Yeah. I'll get halfsie.
Joel (3m 45s):
We're gonna go off clap. We're gonna go off clap on that one.
Chad (3m 49s):
I'll take it. That'll take it.
Joel (3m 50s):
J.T., do you have any comment about the paradox prediction?
J.T. O'Donnell (3m 52s):
I don't think it counts. I'm sorry. You didn't get it all right, then you don't.
Joel (3m 56s):
That's why you don't make two predictions in one.
Chad (3m 59s):
Bullshit.
Joel (3m 59s):
Chad's always on both sides of the fence. You know what I mean? He's always back door, front door.
Chad (4m 4s):
That was one fence. It was the paradox.
Joel (4m 6s):
That's Chad. All right, so I predicted that one well-known restaurant would launch a robot only location.
Chad (4m 11s):
This was a long shot, by the way. This was a fucking long shot.
Joel (4m 19s):
Mostly because I said a brand name like somebody everyone knows. Not some random startup in Idaho, right?
Chad (4m 23s):
Somebody put a flippy in.
Joel (4m 24s):
The gods of of predictions blessed me in December of last year with the following headline. "Burgers, fries, and robots. McDonald's opens first mostly automated location in Dallas." I'm gonna claim if McDonald's gonna do that. I'd say that is an endorsement for robots at your local fast food restaurants coming in 2023.
Chad (4m 54s):
You don't realize how many fast food restaurants we have in America until you leave for a while. I was gone for three months. I was in Europe for a while, came back, and they're fucking everywhere. In Europe, you get the little mom and pop, little restaurants and whatnot, and they're a blue zillion of them. You come here, it is all industrial fast food and it's everywhere. If you're gonna have industrial fast food, you might as well have automation. What's a little grease in your burger? That's not a big deal.
Joel (5m 27s):
Plenty of Burger Kings, McDonald's, and Taco Bells in Europe. Just not where Chad is.
Chad (5m 32s):
All we have to do is take a look at per capita and you will see that we blow them out of the fucking water.
Joel (5m 39s):
But when I Expedia my hotel location, I make sure that there's a Taco Bell, Burger King, or McDonald's within walking distance, which is not a far away from me, Chad.
Chad (5m 49s):
Congrats on that one.
Joel (5m 52s):
In the proximity of my hotel, yes.
Chad (5m 53s):
That was a very big swing and you got that.
Joel (5m 55s):
Not too bad, not too bad.
Chad (5m 56s):
Good prediction. My second one fell flat and I can't believe it fucking fell flat. I predicted that ZipRecruiter would acquire VRVO, did not happen. This is just another reason why ZipRecruiter is dying on the vine. They aren't taking our recommendations. We're giving them free recommendations on the show and they're not even taking the shit. This is why they're dying.
J.T. O'Donnell (6m 18s):
You don't even own a board seat yet.
Joel (6m 23s):
Is ZipRecruiter a common theme on some of your content, J.T.? Do you have an opinion on the Zip?
J.T. O'Donnell (6m 27s):
They're popular right with the job seekers. I think everyone's looking, but most companies, everyone's struggling with. They're not getting the response that they want from whether it's Indeed, Glassdoor, or ZipRecruiter so job seekers are tired of it. I think they all have to figure out a way for the response rates or some form of engagement rate to go up, or it's troublesome. They go the way of some of the other boards.
Joel (6m 54s):
Popular with job seekers, but here's what Wall Street thinks about ZipRecruiter.
Commentator (6m 58s):
60% of the time. It works every time.
Joel (6m 59s):
All right. That's a big hit for you on ZipRecruiter, Chad. All right. My second one from 2022, I predicted that NFTs will be used to recruit and retain talent. The idea was Nike would give NFTs of their athletes to recruiting and retention goals. People would have these valuable NFTs. Unfortunately, aside from Donald Trump getting richer on his NFT collection, and you know you have a few out there in a Chad and Cheese Land, I could not find any proof on the Google machine that NFTs had been used to recruit or retain talent in 2022.
Chad (7m 41s):
I tell you what, Donald Trump showed us a great way to launder money through those little bullshit NFT cards. That was pretty genius in how he scammed the living.
Joel (7m 55s):
Bitcoin is gonna work in Moscow when he sets up shop with Putin in a year.
Chad (8m 2s):
My last, but not least from last year, I predicted that Randstad shuts down Monster. They didn't shut it down, although, they have been selling it off in pieces parts. Ranstad sold Monsters, APAC, and Malise business to Quest Corporation. They didn't get shut down, but they have been sold off. Not everything, but little pieces.
Joel (8m 27s):
Is this your plea for a golf clap?
J.T. O'Donnell (8m 31s):
He's doing it again. He's doing it again.
Chad (8m 34s):
I just have to make sure that the listeners know what's happening, Joel. I don't care about whether I get a buzzer or not. Bastard. Quest literally just changed the Monster brand in Finland to Jolly. The Monster brand is that fucked up in Europe and AsiaPac. They also announced that Monster operations, the actual operations umbrella is going to be rebranded as Found it. That is how bad the Monster brand is in those areas of the world.
Joel (9m 4s):
I don't know, J.T. Is this eh or do we give a golf clap to Chad on his monster?
J.T. O'Donnell (9m 11s):
Oh, I already told you how I feel. It's not a hundred percent.
Chad (9m 16s):
Such a hater. I don't know what she hates so much.
Joel (9m 18s):
If you couldn't tell, Chad was not hugged much as a child so he tries to get as much positive as much as possible.
Chad (9m 24s):
I do like a hug. I like a good hug, yes.
Joel (9m 26s):
Unlike me who was loved by their parents. My final prediction was that at least one startup in our space would get at least a 10 million investment under the guise of recruiting in the Metaverse. Now, while there are endless webinars, blog posts, and news stories about recruiting in the Metaverse, I could not find any evidence on the Google machine that there were any startups that were specifically for recruiting in the Metaverse. We have a long way to go before the Metaverse is a thing in recruiting. One prediction that we got right, Chad, and will continue to get right. People love free shit as we give free shit away on the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel (10m 8s):
If you haven't signed up, I know J.T. is at the top of the list for free shit at Chad and Cheese.
J.T. O'Donnell (10m 17s):
I do.
Joel (10m 17s):
You gotta go to Chadcheese.com, click on the free link. We're talking about free t-shirts from our friends at Job Get. We're talking about free Bourbon Whiskey from Tex Colonel, Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Am I missing anyone?
Chad (10m 26s):
Rum from Plum Baby.
Joel (10m 27s):
Yeah, that's right. Shout out to Ed Tuske, Chad and Cheese super fan, for winning.
Chad (10m 32s):
Ed from Philly.
Joel (10m 33s):
Philly loves them some rum and Plum is gonna send Ed a nice bottle of rum. He is also celebrating a birthday this month, which is how you win a little bit of rum from Plum. Jenny Shakka Khan, I'm not sure how you pronounce.
Chad (10m 54s):
Walt Disney, yes.
Joel (10m 55s):
From Disney. She is a double whiskey getter. A choice from Chad, a choice from Cheese. It's like the old days of Blockbuster when you got film choices from Chad and film choices from Cheese. Chad picks a bourbon, I pick a bourbon, and you get drunk and have fun. That's how this works. Chad Cheese, free shit. That wraps up 2022. We're gonna take a quick break and J.T. might get to talk in the next next series of predictions. We're gonna get into 2023. Sit tight kids. I'm pouring my second bottle or tram, sorry. All right.
Joel (11m 33s):
All right. All right. 2023.
Chad (11m 38s):
Come on baby.
Joel (11m 38s):
J.T. is chomping at the bit to make a prediction and she is our guest.
J.T. O'Donnell (11m 44s):
I'm ready.
Joel (11m 45s):
Welcome to the show. We're excited to have you here. You're clearly opinionated, you're clearly smart. You've clearly been around the block a few times in this industry. Give us a prediction for 2023.
J.T. O'Donnell (11m 60s):
Prediction number one, the ambition recession is gonna rage on and impact how we recruit. There's a guy named Robert Glazer out of Boston, owns Acceleration Partners. He coined the term, founded on LinkedIn. Basically said, "Look, people are checked out, all these purpose driven professionals are not feeling it. We're going to have to completely change how we get their attention and get them to apply to our jobs." I don't think he's wrong. As someone who spends a ton of time with job seekers right now, I would say there is definitely an ambition recession. People would rather do less or figure out how they're gonna work on their own terms, but they're not gonna be a sellout.
J.T. O'Donnell (12m 42s):
That's the thing I hear time and time again. They just don't wanna do the grind. They don't believe in the hustle. They obviously don't wanna do the long hours. It's gonna get interesting, especially when we're seeing in the news today. Companies are demanding people to come back more than two days a week, more than three days a week. Disney four days a week, right? I don't know. I think the recession's strong. I think you're gonna see a lot of people say, "F it."
Joel (13m 6s):
This came out today that the Hartford did a survey of savings and stress levels for lack of money, and found that some two-thirds of people are stressed about not having enough money. Over 50% have less than a thousand dollars in their bank account for savings. Do people just not give a shit about money anymore?
J.T. O'Donnell (13m 28s):
I think some of it is social media. Social media keeps telling them, prioritize your health, take care of yourself. Don't get stressed out, don't let work run you. That narrative is still going strong everywhere they look. People are feeling, they don't wanna go back to those crazy hours because they almost feel like I said, that they're selling out or they're caving from this big shift to being a purpose-driven professional out of the pandemic, which is, "I'm gonna do work that I wanna do work, that works for me, not the other way around." I think there's a ton of that internal conflict going on with people. I think right now they're gonna push back and figure out how to do more with less or continue to deal with that stress.
Chad (14m 11s):
What's your actual prediction though? Will companies change or will job seekers change? Who's gonna have to change? Because somebody's gonna have to change.
J.T. O'Donnell (14m 18s):
Companies will change. The really smart companies out there are gonna know how to change the narrative, how to change what they're saying, and where they're saying it so that people don't feel like a sellout to come to work for them. That's gonna be the difference. They can feel like they're doing it on their own terms and work them back in, because we've gotta get people excited again about working. We've gotta get them. It doesn't have to necessarily be ambition, but some sort of excitement for work wanting to get there. The smart companies are gonna figure out to do that, but the message is different. It's not the same carrots that we used to hang in front of people. Companies aren't thinking about that so if you really are gonna put whatever you were doing in 2022 on repeat for 2023, they're not gonna bite.
Chad (15m 2s):
Yeah. It was the we are family kind of thing, which is, as a family, we wanna work hard and we wanna work 20 hours a fucking day. You know what I mean? It's one of those things and that's just not passing muster anymore at all. I agree, companies are gonna have to find a new propaganda line to be able to work. It's funny because on the weekly show or on the European show, we talked about how this 28-year-old kid actually took out a 12-year-lease on a condo, on a cruise ship where he's working from anywhere and he is also seeing all of Europe. I think we're at a point where companies are going to have to be more flexible than they've been incredibly rigid over the last shit for forever.
J.T. O'Donnell (15m 52s):
I agree. You're gonna demand them to come back in, they're not going to do it happily. If you don't think that that's gonna impact their work, their productivity, and that they aren't out looking for another job, so the smart companies are gonna create the benefits and perks that work. I'm with you. It's the messaging that is going to have to change. If employers don't do it, they're not gonna get the talent.
Chad (16m 16s):
Oh, it's all propaganda.
Joel (16m 17s):
Sounds like you're bullish on the gig economy as well.
J.T. O'Donnell (16m 20s):
Hey, I am. I've been saying that for years, right? We're not employees anymore. We're businesses of one. We're service providers. We've come full circle from back in the day where you were a farmer, right? My maiden name's Tanner. My family we're Tanners so it's come full circle. Every job's temporary. We're crazy to think that. We're all commodities until we prove otherwise. If we're teaching people that, if the pandemic taught them nothing else, then they're gonna keep going with that. They're going to figure out how to do it for themselves and they're not gonna get a set of golden handcuffs and go into an office four days a week if they don't want to.
Joel (16m 55s):
The beatings will stop when morale improves. Chad, what's your first 2023 prediction?
Chad (16m 57s):
Okay, so Facebook runs from the jobs. We saw how Facebook ejected out of jobs. Google is going to seize the opportunity by releasing paid job ads in the Google for Jobs platform. That will happen in 2023.
Joel (17m 10s):
Pay per click, flat fee. What are we talking?
Chad (17m 14s):
It's gonna be their same scheme. Okay. They're not gonna change their scheme. It's gonna be plug and play. They're just gonna do it with jobs. When you promote something, your ad's gonna be your job.
Joel (17m 32s):
We've talked about this for many years, not many years, but I'm shocked they haven't done it yet. Shocked. The only thing I can think of is that the European antitrust yet just has them so scared that they just wanna hold off on doing it, but this would be a billion dollar business for them.
Chad (17m 50s):
It would. The thing is that you have to take a look at the perspective shift of power though too, because indeed on Google for Jobs doesn't have as much power as they did on pure SEO because they were better at SEO than everybody else. They weren't playing with Google for jobs they currently are. They did here just last year. You have to take a look at the shift of power. Will Google allow other platforms to buy or is it just gonna be direct employers? Are they going to allow agencies just buy to buy for direct employers? To be quite frank, it'll turn into the exact same thing it was before. Indeed was out buying everybody else. It'll be the same as it ever was and Indeed we'll continue to spend more money on ads than anybody else will.
Chad (18m 31s):
Yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how the power struggle changes, and hopefully, they just do direct employers at that point. If they do, I think there's a great opportunity for a shit ton of cash and a releveling of the landscape. It's gonna suck for smaller aggregators, but I think it'll re-level things.
J.T. O'Donnell (18m 53s):
All right. Visualize this for me though. It says ad clearly at the top, and then it says customer service rep, $17 an hour. What am I looking at?
Joel (19m 5s):
I think Chad's talking about the actual job listings.
J.T. O'Donnell (19m 8s):
Not just an ad. Do you think the whole listing's gonna come up when somebody Google it?
Joel (19m 15s):
Sales job at IBM.
J.T. O'Donnell (19m 17s):
They're all gonna come up?
Joel (19m 18s):
Four different job sites have that including IBM's main site, and you'll be able to pay to be first, second, whatever, in terms of the list that people can decide.
J.T. O'Donnell (19m 27s):
You can click on. Interesting.
Joel (19m 29s):
What I do like about it is Google's algorithm is based largely on engagement. The clicks that are gonna get the most, particularly if you're paid for them, are the brands that people know and trust. Those are probably the ones that are gonna be advertising. The advertisers will be LinkedIn, the job boards you know and love. Indeed may hold the hold the line for a few months or years, but they'll eventually crack. The shitty job boards that are fly by night and scamming the whole system are not gonna pay for clicks probably So they're gonna just dwindle away down the line in terms of sites you can pick to apply. I like it for Google, it's bad for Indeed or anyone that competes with them for job postings, but I also like it for the job seeker in that it will help weed out some of the shitty fake bullshit job sites out there, which you know, J.T.
Joel (20m 21s):
Talking to job seekers, they're sick of scams. They're sick of jobs they can't trust.
J.T. O'Donnell (20m 24s):
Right. Number one pet peeve is they never hear back. Number two pet peeve is the amount of weeding they have to do to just even find a job that's relevant. Yeah, I completely agree. They'd like to do away with job boards altogether, the job seeker.
Joel (20m 39s):
Good one, Chad. All right, so my first prediction, and by the way, I sacked up this year. My predictions are either right or wrong. There's no gray area. There's no I made two predictions. One's kind of right. Well, these are all like black and white predictions, all right.
Chad (20m 55s):
Good for you. I appreciate that. Carry on.
Joel (20m 58s):
You're welcome. You're welcome. This is the love I have for you. I sack up for, Chad, everybody. Okay, so my first one is UKG buys ISEMS. Count it. Why do I say this? The popular ATS that most of our listeners know brought in Marketo Steve Lucas in to run the company after Colin left. The idea was to go public, but in 2020, the pandemic came, the public markets crashed, things clearly did not go according to plan. Fast forward to today, Steve Lucas is out as CEO. He's already got a new gig, by the way. It's out of our space, which is pretty common.
Joel (21m 40s):
With with the same PE firm, by the way. Carry on. Pretty common. Yeah, okay. That'll bring me full circle maybe. He's gone. The IPO thing probably is not gonna happen. It's gonna be really hard up for the next two years, probably, especially in our space. Who do they bring in? They bring in Brian Provost to be CEO. Now, why is that important? Well, Provost helps scale a company called Ascentis, which ultimately led to the company being acquired by UKG. If you can't go public and you gotta sell the company for the investors, they've raised over a hundred million at ISEMS, what better way to sell the company to maybe a UKG than to hire the guy who sold a company to UKG being Brian Provost, which leads to my prediction that ISEMS will be sold to UKG in the year 2023.
Chad (22m 32s):
I think it's gonna take more than a year for UKG to bite, but yeah, I think your connecting of the dots there was brilliant. Very good. I'm gonna give you a golf clap right now. Yeah, I think that that's just way too fast for an acquisition of that size.
J.T. O'Donnell (22m 54s):
I agree. ISEMS has been doing a lot of buying. I feel like they wanna try to put that whole thing together, make a go at it, and do something with that. I don't see that happening inside of the year either.
Joel (23m 7s):
Under Steve Lucas, they made a lot of acquisitions. There's no evidence that Brian Provost is gonna start buying up companies. I think Brian's job is to sell the company, but these are predictions. We're having fun. We will know for sure because that is either a right or wrong prediction when we look back on 2023. We've all done our first ones. J.T., we're gonna go back to you because I'm too dumb to keep any kind of different order.
J.T. O'Donnell (23m 31s):
That's fair.
Joel (23m 32s):
What is your second prediction for 2023?
J.T. O'Donnell (23m 33s):
Keep drinking. All right. Second prediction is the Tiktokfication of recruiting. It's a thing. It is going to be a big solid thing. You're gonna know about it.
Chad (23m 44s):
She said big solid thing, by the way. Can we all just take a second?
J.T. O'Donnell (23m 48s):
Simply put, thank you. Here's the deal. Everyone gets on TikTok and says it's fate, right? "Oh, look, this landed on my for you page. It's fate." It's not fate, it's an algorithm.
Chad (24m 5s):
Fucking good algorithm.
J.T. O'Donnell (24m 6s):
Right, and we know how to hack the algorithm. You're gonna see, again, some smart companies start to put content that just stumbles into somebody's feed. They're gonna go down the rabbit hole. They're gonna look the company up on Google, and maybe, if Chad's prediction's right, they're gonna see the job posting there and they're gonna say, "I found my next job." That is because people don't wanna be job seekers anymore. They want to be job shoppers. They want to choose their next employer. Now, if that happens through fate while I'm sitting there on social media, and some story about a company warms my heart or gets me interested, I go down that path, and search and find them, then I controlled my destiny, right?
J.T. O'Donnell (24m 47s):
That happened. I really think smart companies are gonna figure it out. Tiktokfication is here. Whether it's on TikTok, LinkedIn, or Instagram, wherever, but I think the two biggies will be TikTok and LinkedIn. That's where that sudden, "I stumbled across my dream employer story," is gonna make it big.
Chad (25m 3s):
On anything other than TikTok, the algorithms fucking suck, especially LinkedIn. LinkedIn's algorithm is horror bowl. Other than TikTok, which I think you can get some really good targeting on, how do you think this is actually going to work out? To be quite frank, all the other, other than maybe Instagram, Instagram does a halfway decent job, but not great. It's really hard to target. Then Facebook doesn't allow targeting on the job side of the house so how do you see this actually coming to fruition?
J.T. O'Donnell (25m 36s):
I know I'm gonna have a lot of recruiters message me afterwards. I don't take Facebook into consideration because, for job seekers, that's not where they wanna be. It's gonna be TikTok or LinkedIn. With LinkedIn, and I'm not gonna reveal my third prediction because it's fire, but it has to do with where that's headed. All I will say is that there's a change coming and that change is going to make it very possible for people, that algorithm to dramatically improve for people over there. You just gotta trust me on that one but I'm holding my third one hostage.
Joel (26m 10s):
This feels a little 2022 prediction-ish. No?
J.T. O'Donnell (26m 12s):
No.
Joel (26m 12s):
Aren't companies using TikTok to recruit? Aren't they doing some phone videos?
J.T. O'Donnell (26m 16s):
No. Infantile, they dunno what they're doing. I think they've gotten comfortable having their employees get on there. That's not recruiting. Allowing your employees on TikTok is one thing. Having a strategy so that the stories find their way into my feed and I identify with that person and, "Oh my gosh, he or she's like me. I'm gonna go check this company out," that is what's going to happen next.
Joel (26m 41s):
Do you think we'll see a startup come with the sales pitch of we'll help you advertise or figure out TikTok?
J.T. O'Donnell (26m 48s):
Already happening.
Joel (26m 49s):
But for recruiting though.
J.T. O'Donnell (26m 50s):
Yeah.
Joel (26m 50s):
Well then it's not as much a '23 prediction if it's already happening.
J.T. O'Donnell (26m 54s):
It's there, but are they tractioning? Not yet. They're out there. 2023 is the year where you're gonna see it, know it, identify it, and say that is TikTokfication of recruiting.
Chad (27m 8s):
I guess the question is, instead of pointing out a company, could we actually point out a vendor that gains traction, maybe is even acquired in 2023 that is around the TikTokfication?
J.T. O'Donnell (27m 20s):
I know a company that might do that.
Chad (27m 22s):
Okay, I think one of the things we're looking at is like watermarks for being able to actually, Joel's talking about how do we say yes or no to this prediction?
Joel (27m 38s):
Sack up, J.T.
J.T. O'Donnell (27m 40s):
Absolutely, it's happening there. Okay, so let's tighten it up. There will be a company in recruitment marketing and employee branding that will be acquired in 2023 because of the fact that it's owning TikTokfication of recruiting. That's prediction.
Joel (27m 58s):
There's the sack. There it is.
Chad (27m 59s):
I love it when J.T. tightens it up.
J.T. O'Donnell (28m 1s):
Well, exactly.
Joel (28m 2s):
Can I make an off the radar anti prediction or anti rebuttal today?
Chad (28m 9s):
Yeah. Do it.
Joel (28m 10s):
I think Congress is gonna get serious about TikTok and their Chinese owners. There's gonna be potential legislation come down to Ban TikTok in the US, and even if it doesn't happen, I think it's gonna scare a lot of employers away from leveraging the platform to market to candidates and try to build an employer brand. I think the opposite. There will be a lessening of TikTok influence and those people will, to your point, maybe start going to reels, maybe start going to YouTube shorts, maybe going somewhere else, but I think there's gonna be a lot of pressure in the US to wean off of TikTok.
Chad (28m 51s):
See this right here? This is money. The US only understands one thing and that's the almighty dollar. TikTok can bring a shit ton of fucking cash. What they'll do is they'll look back at that Oracle deal or one of the other deals, they'll make a deal. This is not going away.
J.T. O'Donnell (29m 7s):
No, definitely not. I said, TikTokfication because what TikTok has done has taught us how to do storytelling, how to use humor, heart in order to connect and create call to action, create engagement.
Joel (29m 20s):
You can do that off TikTok.
J.T. O'Donnell (29m 22s):
You can do it off TikTok. That's why it'll happen anywhere. Bring on the drama around TikTok. Also, employers don't have to have their own TikTok account to use it. They're going to use influencers and creators who will create that content and get people there. Why would they have their own brand? They don't have to. There's so many other ways they can leverage TikTok in order to get those stories out and get people, again down the rabbit hole, searching and shopping for their brand.
Joel (29m 50s):
TikTok is out. Votes are worth more than dollars the next election cycle. I'm picking it.
Chad (29m 55s):
That's bullshit picking. I don't know if you know what Citizens United is, but that's just total bullshit that you spewed. My turn.
Joel (30m 0s):
I need a refill. Dammit.
Chad (30m 2s):
Prediction number two. Now let me set this up appropriately. Decades ago we heard big data, big data, big data, but the problem was that most of us didn't have the processing capacity or power to actually know what the fuck to do with big data we do today. Today, we're powering ML and AI in a bunch of other acronyms with big data. Then there was this new fanangle thing called Cloud computing. We heard it, we didn't know what the fuck it was, but it ran in the background and it worked. It just fucking worked. Then just a month ago, there's this little thing called chatGPT. Heard about it?
Joel (30m 43s):
Here it comes.
Chad (30m 46s):
The advanced AI general chatbot, which validates that we all know, when it comes to adoption, see it, feel it, taste it, touch it, and chatGPT demonstrated that. Looking back at all these examples, I'm gonna pivot hard on this one. I believe that Web three will call upon all of those lessons in 2023. I predict that there will be a major player in Web three that actually gains traction. It's gonna be entirely new. It's not gonna be somebody that we currently know, and they will actually gain traction. We will see Web three finally make an entrance, a real entrance into this market.
Joel (31m 25s):
Significant investment as well.
Chad (31m 27s):
Yes.
Joel (31m 28s):
Okay.
Chad (31m 28s):
Significant funding and traction around partnerships and just a total landscape because our industry is literally just so fucking thirsty for the opportunity to revolutionize, especially when we're talking about the LinkedIns of the world. I think they will grasp at something like this. This is a brass ring, I feel, for our industry, whether it's background checks, assessments, CV, and credentialing portability.
Joel (31m 56s):
You and Sir Richard didn't come up with this over some pints at the pub, did you? He's taking a really long drink.
J.T. O'Donnell (32m 12s):
He's like, "Hmm."
Joel (32m 16s):
I may go anti on this one as well. I think the FTX, the crypto crash, investors, people, consumers are scared to death of anything crypto, blockchain, coin.
Chad (32m 30s):
It's not crypto though.
Joel (32m 32s):
It's under the same umbrella. They're all gonna suffer.
Chad (32m 35s):
We're not doing tokens.
Joel (32m 37s):
They're all gonna get killed.
Chad (32m 38s):
You think humans are smart? I don't.
Joel (32m 43s):
That's why we have a podcast, but I think there's gonna be a lot of pressure. It's gonna be really hard to be successful in Web three and not just our industry, but anywhere. J.T?
J.T. O'Donnell (32m 58s):
The fact that you're saying Web three and a bunch of people on this call are like, what? Come on. Seriously. There's still so many people that don't get it. I played around with chatGPT a ton this week. It's crazy. It's crazy what it can do. Immediately, your mind starts going a million different ways. The whole Ryan Reynolds Mint commercial that he created, he said he created a script for Mint Mobile, let them know our holiday is still going on. Use a swear word and use a joke. You see the potential. We always want that kind of innovation in our space.
Joel (33m 35s):
Now, I think if there's a prediction, and this isn't one of mine, but it would be that someone will use openAI to create a job description improvement engine or a resume improvement engine that you can plug in. Is there someone official that's launched? I haven't seen any official company.
Chad (33m 53s):
No, I know behind the scenes, it's already been happening. It's happened before chatGPT. OpenAI is open source. People have been using that for years. It is amazing. The cool thing is that we haven't been talking about it until they actually put something that we could touch in front of us. I think the biggest key out of all of this, and I agree a hundred percent, J.T., is that you shouldn't have to go through a master's level fucking course on Web three to understand what the goddamn product is. I believe that there's going to be at least one product, there might be more, that comes out this year, 2023, that's Web three that will gain traction because it will stick with keep it simple, stupid.
J.T. O'Donnell (34m 33s):
Yeah. I have to say, just going back to chatGPT and thinking about that, imagine just saying, "What's it like to work for Amazon?" This thing just starts to answer you back like you're having a text chat with someone. Go try it now. It gives you an ear fall. Forget Glassdoor reviews, if that's what your company's worried about right now, I'm just telling you, you might wanna start worrying about this stuff a little bit more.
Joel (35m 1s):
Chad just needs something he can touch. All right, let's get to my second prediction here before we go on too much longer. All right, my number two, and again, this is a black and white prediction. It's either right or wrong. Okay? Greenhouse goes IPO. I know I said ISEMS wasn't. I think Greenhouse has to. Now how did I come up with this?
Chad (35m 22s):
In 2023?
Joel (35m 23s):
'23, yes. In December of '22, Greenhouse announced the hiring of Christina Salen as its Chief Financial Officer. What's a special skill that Salem has? Well, she helped Etsy go public back in 2015, and she has a core competency with public companies. With over a hundred million in funding and celebrating a decade in business, liquidation is gonna happen, and I think it's gonna happen in the form of an IPO in 2023 for Greenhouse.
Chad (35m 46s):
I gotta say that I'm impressed with your research on this. We should actually take more time away from each other because this is probably the best research I've seen you.
Joel (36m 2s):
You're picking up what I'm dropping, huh? You like this?
Chad (36m 7s):
No, I know. I like it. I don't like an IPO in 2023. Again, listen to the European podcast because StepStone is talking about it. It doesn't make sense because the market's not ready for it, but if you're desperate, what else are you gonna do?
J.T. O'Donnell (36m 28s):
I'm with you. I just feel like it's gonna be a wonky year, right? The layoffs are calming and they just keep coming and everyone's uncertain. Is that the year that you wanna IPO or do you wanna wait? I guess it's selling the numbers.
Joel (36m 42s):
Wait till it's too late? Is that when you wanna wait?
J.T. O'Donnell (36m 46s):
You're gonna take it to the next level, hopefully. You're gonna rebound quickly.
Joel (36m 51s):
I think it may be now or never. I think it's now or never for a lot of companies, at least in terms of their perception of the business. If I invested in Greenhouse in 2012, I want my money back. I want some cash. Ten years is enough time. Let's wrap it up. Let's wrap it up, kids.
Chad (37m 6s):
Yeah, but if you're that rich, you can wait until there's a good market to be able to fucking IPO.
Joel (37m 10s):
Let's take a quick break and we'll get to the coup de gras, everyone's final, and what did you call it, J.T.? Fire prediction?
J.T. O'Donnell (37m 17s):
My fire prediction.
Joel (37m 18s):
The fire prediction is coming up after this quick break.
Chad (37m 21s):
I thought she said money shot.
Joel (37m 25s):
All right, kids. I say we talked about a certain order, but if J.T.'s got a fire prediction, I say she goes last.
Chad (37m 31s):
I want to hear it.
Joel (37m 33s):
You wanna hear it first? All right, J.T., it's up to you. Well, you're our guest. Do you want to go first or last?
J.T. O'Donnell (37m 43s):
I don't care because it's gonna be the best one.
Joel (37m 45s):
She's here to play, man.
J.T. O'Donnell (37m 47s):
If you're ready for it now, I'll drop it now.
Chad (37m 53s):
You drop it like it's hot.
J.T. O'Donnell (37m 57s):
Unlike Joel who came prepared.
Chad (37m 58s):
This is not new, by the way. This is not new. He does it at least once or twice a year.
J.T. O'Donnell (38m 3s):
Amazing, Joel. I feel so honored that you came so prepared for this one. No one has said this to me at LinkedIn. I have no proof of this, but my prediction is that they are going to start monetizing. They're gonna let creators monetize and make money off the platform, which is a huge deviation for them. The reason I say that is that they've got this whole thing called the creator mode that you can turn on, which by the way, do you have your creator modes turn on, gentlemen? What they've quietly been doing over the last couple years is turning up the functionality for people that have creator mode. I seriously think this goes all the way back to when Gary V. started working with them and probably told them, they were like, "Make our social media platform better."
J.T. O'Donnell (38m 45s):
Gary was like, "This isn't a social media platform," so he started giving them advice on how to turn it into one. I think they've listened to that advice. It's been amazing to see the features. Now, if you have creator mode, there's some really cool stuff that's available to you. I think the last piece of the puzzle is to monetize. You look at Google, which is now spending some really good money to give people more money on YouTube shorts, way more money on that than TikTokers can make on TikTok. That's their play, right? Google and YouTube are gonna try to get all the monetization by paying more. If LinkedIn introduced it, think of all the people that are in their spaces that could become influencers. They call them top voices now on LinkedIn. Become a top voice in your industry or your vertical and actually make money off it, and then think about how whoever hires you, you bring that audience with them, right?
J.T. O'Donnell (39m 29s):
You're sitting at a company, you're CTO. You've got this following, you move to the next company. That's big stuff. You're incentivizing.
Chad (39m 36s):
You're bringing assets?
J.T. O'Donnell (39m 37s):
Right, money. You've got video. You can stream live on there. You can do audio if you wanna do your clubhouse version.
Chad (39m 44s):
This is like YouTube providing revenue streams to creators. Is that what I'm getting?
J.T. O'Donnell (39m 48s):
Exactly, but it's gonna happen to people.
Joel (39m 51s):
If I'm an advertiser, I say, "Hey, I want to get my product or I want to advertise with this creator." It wouldn't be like, "Hey, company A. I did a blog post. I want top influencers and recruitment to share it." Do you say to the creator, "Hey, here's a post. If you promote it, we'll give you a hundred dollars."
J.T. O'Donnell (40m 11s):
No, you can do that.
Joel (40m 13s):
What do you think it'll look like?
J.T. O'Donnell (40m 15s):
I go to you and say, "Chad, Joel, I'm gonna give you each a thousand dollars and I want you to record a video and talk about my company and something about it." You can do it that way, or think of it this way. You just start getting views on content you create. Your podcast right now, you turn it into a video. You put it in your feed, Joel. It gets a million views and LinkedIn says, "I'm gonna give you a half a cent for every hundred views you get." Now, the content you're creating for yourself is making you a couple hundred dollars, maybe a couple thousand, whatever. That's how those TikTok creators are making bank just by having their TikTok viewed, not even including the sponsored posts that they're getting.
J.T. O'Donnell (40m 55s):
Imagine building follower.. My advice to everybody right now is turn your creator mode on, start pushing out content, and start getting followers, because if they start allowing monetization, you literally could have your very own brand in your space.
Joel (41m 6s):
Let me unpack this a little bit. The LinkedIn algorithm basically makes or breaks you. If you're saying, "Hey LinkedIn, I'll give you a hundred dollars," and they're saying, "Okay, creator, I'll give you 50 and we'll pump up the exposure on your post," isn't that money that LinkedIn could just keep because they control the algorithm?
J.T. O'Donnell (41m 28s):
That's the reason why they're not getting enough creative content and engagement on the platform. That's why every other social media tool now incentivizes creators by giving them a little money because they're going to keep creating content constantly for that one post that goes viral that makes them some bank. Why wouldn't we apply the same principle here? Going back to my earlier prediction about the TikTok application of recruiting and while work on LinkedIn is now you can have people from companies creating content or you can go to a really top-notch creator on LinkedIn and have them talk about your company and have that go viral, right? That third party credibility factor, that's so big.
J.T. O'Donnell (42m 8s):
It's coming, right? Already, the content creation is getting better and better. Yes, it's still overrun with ads and the ad placement, but if they made that switch and got that much more great content on there and incentivize them, it's peanuts for what they could make in terms of engagement and views.
Chad (42m 27s):
The biggest problem I have with this is that LinkedIn's algorithm is the shittiest algorithm in the world. The technical debt that they have from fucking 20 years ago, for goodness sake is just ridiculous. To be able to do something like this, it seems like there needs to be an entire overhaul of the system.
J.T. O'Donnell (42m 46s):
I'm not gonna argue with you on that piece of info, but what I also know is that if you start out early and you build your content, you can go pretty viral on LinkedIn as someone who's done it, right? Little fun fact, I take every TikTok that I do and I post it on LinkedIn because the most watched videos are TikTok videos on LinkedIn. We got a bunch of warriors on LinkedIn. They all wanna see what's going on in TikTok.
Chad (43m 18s):
Is it because of the watermark?
J.T. O'Donnell (43m 19s):
100% the watermark. You do that and it gets the highest amount of engagement. The video's native. You're not taking anybody off LinkedIn so LinkedIn doesn't have a problem with that, but it gets sick engagement. Now that they've allowed things links in video, so I can tell you about something and you can click a link in my video and go straight there, they're competing on levels that other platforms don't even have. We can complain about the algorithm all we want, but the truth is there's a huge opportunity. Here's what we know. When you're on a new social media platform early, you can grab followers, you can grab that market share early. Now LinkedIn's been around forever, but it's not been a social media platform.
Joel (43m 58s):
Were you surprised that they they cut their stories?
J.T. O'Donnell (44m 1s):
No, because I tested it and I don't think stories is for everyone. You have to think about the purpose of a platform like LinkedIn. People are coming to LinkedIn now because they want a platform where, "Hey, I can learn something." I have people complaining about, "Hey, there's too much personal stuff on LinkedIn already." Well scroll past it. You don't have to look at it, but I think video's doing well, and don't underestimate. They have newsletter. I was mentioning this, so they turn newsletter feature back on. If you have that feature, people can subscribe to you. You can send an article directly to their inbox. In under four months when they turn that feature back on, I gained 400,000 newsletter subscribers. If you're out there right now and you wanna build an audience, this is the time to get on LinkedIn.
Joel (44m 46s):
You're gonna be really mad when they turn it off, aren't you?
J.T. O'Donnell (44m 48s):
Yeah, right. Let's hope they don't. Oh, I'm taking the risk.
Joel (44m 52s):
I do agree that LinkedIn's advertising has been floundering since they launched advertising and they need to do something to get people excited and maybe this is the thing. This is the fire.
Chad (45m 3s):
They need the Chad and Cheese fire. That's a problem.
J.T. O'Donnell (45m 5s):
That's what they need, which is why you need to be on video, Joel.
Joel (45m 11s):
No one needs that. No one needs that.
Chad (45m 13s):
All right, I'm going next. Joel, you can go last. Okay, my last prediction. Might not seem big, but it is big for the industry. It's that Syndio gets acquired. Who's Syndio? Syndio simply is a pay equity platform. For more insights, you can listen to some of our most recent podcasts entitled the Pay Equity Fix with Zev IGen, which dropped on December 19th. Anyhow, salary transparency is catching like wildfire with states like California and Washington joining Colorado in making it mandatory to provide basic salary transparency on job listings. This topic has taken center stage and last month, job search engine Lenzo reported that 70% of the US jobs available on their job search engine, they have millions of them, have salary data.
Chad (45m 53s):
It's working. No matter what, it's working, but once again, this is only the first step into pay equity. Starbucks worked hard on getting their employees to pay equity. American Airlines just announced that they received a certification for the Fair Pay Workplace for pay equity. What do all those companies have in common? Syndio. Syndio's CEO, Maria Colacurcio, came to Starbucks or she came from Starbucks where she was actually a part of the team that helped them to get to pay parody and American Airlines brought in Syndio in 2020 to help them do the exact same thing.
Chad (46m 41s):
Pay equity goes beyond just salaries on jobs and there are not many when it comes to competitors for Syndio in this space. I see Syndio getting acquired, gobbled up quickly in 2023.
Joel (46m 56s):
Syndio is awesome. I think you're right in terms of the timing and pay transparency. Pay transparency definitely have a moment in '23. The challenge that I have is the 80 some million they've taken in funding. With that kind of money raised, they're gonna have to get a lot a big check. How many people can write a check for that? We'll see.
Chad (47m 24s):
What's a bigger topic in our industry today other than pay transparency?
Joel (47m 29s):
ChatGPT.
Chad (47m 29s):
That's not just in our industry. That's general.
J.T. O'Donnell (47m 36s):
Help me out though. If 70% already have pay ranges, we got 30% more to get pay ranges. What?
Chad (47m 43s):
Here's the thing, those are pay ranges that are on jobs. That's not transparency actually in the organization. If we're already working with an organization, you don't know how much I'm being paid, right? The companies aren't actually doing the leveling internally to ensure that they have pay equity. They need a platform to be able to get there, right? If you take a look at how the government is pressing for pay equity, it only makes sense. You have to have a platform to get you there quicker today than tomorrow when you start getting fined for not having pay equity.
J.T. O'Donnell (48m 16s):
Do you think this is an ongoing thing forever, and ever, ever? As you even you get there, you've got your pay transparency, it's achieved. Now you're in maintenance mode, you're on subscription model?
Chad (48m 28s):
All indications demonstrate that it's gonna take 75 years to get to parody, okay? That being said, I'm gonna play the short-term ball on being able to get acquired and the long-term ball on equity.
Joel (48m 40s):
Long-term ball, short-term ball. Chad's playing all the balls. That brings me to my final, which I feel is a little anti-climactic. I'm gonna rock the drum roll on mine. Give it a little extra omph.
Chad (48m 51s):
Sack up Cheeseman.
Joel (48m 52s):
It's a black or white again. All right, here we go. Scott Guts. Who the hell is Scott Guts?
Chad (48m 58s):
I know that guy.
Joel (49m 0s):
Scott Guts is out as Monster's CEO.
Chad (49m 3s):
What? He's so nice.
Joel (49m 4s):
He is nice but nice doesn't get it done in job board land, Chad. You mentioned Monster getting sold by Ronstadt, which I also think is a very good possibility this year, but I didn't want to piggyback on your false prediction from last year. Randstadt is definitely consolidating ownership of the Monster brand. Making people change brands. They're definitely making moves to make it less or make it less problematic to sell the company. It would not surprise me at all. Monster's still a brand in Europe, in many countries, and I wouldn't be surprised if a little friend of ours maybe wrote a check to just take Monster off the table and make a little trip over to the Atlantic and have a ready made brand in the US.
Joel (49m 47s):
Anyway, that's a different prediction. Scott Guts is out. He's in year five of his leadership. Can you name any innovation out of Monster in the last five years? They haven't even brought Instagram for job search, which they've been promising since they bought Jobber. No innovation, not much growth. The only growth is basically market driven because the labor market is so hot right now. I think a lot of it is just found money for them. Randstadt is getting new executives from top to bottom all over the place. New CEOs everywhere, which means there's gonna be changes. If it's not sell the company, it's get rid of the CEO that's been dragging us down for the last five years.
Joel (50m 30s):
Nice guy for sure. Results aren't there. Scott Guts by the end of 2023 will be taking his talents to South Beach or wherever he can go, but it won't be at monster.com. That is my final prediction for 2023.
J.T. O'Donnell (50m 44s):
Oh, I'd never like to see somebody lose their job.
Joel (50m 46s):
He'll be okay.
J.T. O'Donnell (50m 47s):
Yeah, hopefully he's got a really nice parachute. Definitely not. I've never understood why they didn't name change. I'll be honest. I know they have a worldwide name recognition, but they also have some great SEO when you think of thousands of pages of content. It's just that the younger generations that I work with do not associate with Monster.
Joel (51m 12s):
It's an energy drink.
J.T. O'Donnell (51m 13s):
Right, exactly, so I never understood why they didn't rebrand into something cooler.
Chad (51m 23s):
Well remember that the company that bought assets from them in APAC, they rebranded entirely.
J.T. O'Donnell (51m 28s):
But kept all the SEO. There is an asset sitting there in Monster. I just don't understand why there's never been a rebrand.
Chad (51m 34s):
We'll never know.
J.T. O'Donnell (51m 34s):
We will never know.
Chad (51m 35s):
I would like to let you know that the Chad and Cheese actually ran for co-president of Monster and we were not elected.
J.T. O'Donnell (51m 40s):
What happened?
Joel (51m 41s):
We didn't get a call or a DM.
Chad (51m 44s):
Not even a call.
Joel (51m 44s):
No sliding into our DMs about the Monster job. We might have to revive the campaign to be co-CEOs of Monster, Chad.
J.T. O'Donnell (51m 50s):
Unbelievable. Your first thing would be to what? What would you do?
Joel (51m 54s):
Sell monster.com to the energy drink for about a hundred million dollars.
J.T. O'Donnell (52m 1s):
A million dollars.
Chad (52m 2s):
We would pieces parts the fuck out.
Joel (52m 3s):
Yeah, we would Gordon Gecko the shit out of monster.com.
Chad (52m 3s):
You take a look at what Apollo has done with Career Builder, and that's nothing. It it would be Dexter Ash. We would carve that fucker up.
Joel (52m 17s):
J.T. "Nostra Donnell" O'Donnell, thank you for joining us for our year predictions. For our listeners who want to know more about you, connect to you, where would you send them?
J.T. O'Donnell (52m 26s):
Oh, well. If they've been listening, they probably know TikTok and LinkedIn are a good bad, but they also can just hit me up at workatdaily.com
Joel (52m 50s):
Based on our audience, sorry guys, there's no MySpace page, so you'll have to get that TikTok account in quick order. Chad, Happy New Year. I'm excited for another 12 months of recruitment, fun-filled, liver crushing excitement.
Chad (53m 13s):
I love it.
Joel (53m 15s):
Love it. O'Donnell, thanks for joining us and we out.
Chad (53m 20s):
We out.
J.T. O'Donnell (53m 20s):
We out.
Chad and Cheese Podcast (53m 21s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shout outs of people you don't even know. Yet, you're listening. It's incredible, and not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepperjack, Swiss, so many cheeses, and not one word. So weird. Any who, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. While you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.
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